Your take on a Autumn and Spring Court ?

[CottbusFiles]

The Autumn (and to a lesser degree) Spring Court seem to be concepts a lot of DFRPG players find intriguing and interesting, what is your take or idea on them ?

As we know Summer and Winter are related to Life and Death, so for my Dresdenverse it was only logical to make Spring about Chaos and Anarchy and Autumn about Order. Of course we have a lot of order (bount to oaths, allways speak the truth etc.) and chaos in fey society but this courts exemplified this. The autumn court was like a perfect totalitarian state while the "rulers" of spring where only called that because they where the strongest. Both system had their flaws (unorganized/unflexibility) that brought them their doom. We know have aspects of Spring and Autumn in the other two courts.

What do you ?

[Silverblaze]

The game I play in has those courts being patriarchal, Father - King - Prince

Spring: Oberon is king - rebirth, sexuality (most creatures breed in spring), compassion, growth, life, similar to summer...even more chaotic than summer in general.

Autumn: Das Erlkoenig rules - decay, hunting, invoking weakness, strength, survival of the fittest, death, similar to winter...more orderly than summer but less orderly than winter.

[Bruce Coulson]

Silver is using much the same ideas that I am, except I'm playing with the ideas that there was a SPECTACULAR falling out between Spring and Summer, and between Fall and Winter, sometime after Shakespeare's plays.  So, the male counterparts have faded into the background...but aren't gone, and indeed can't vanish, or the balance will suffer.

One of the PCs, who took the Trouble Aspect "Obi-Wan Never Told You About Your Father", is actually the Son of Autumn, and is being groomed for some special tasks...

[Haru]

Das Erlkoenig

It's "Der Erlkoenig". Just because Peabody screwed up his german doesn't mean everyone has to

[Lany79]

In my game I made the Autumn and Spring Courts more of a transitional thing, those of the Spring Court will one day become the Summer Court, and those of Autumn will become Winter. Spring wants to become Summer, while Autumn is more mournful, they don't necessarily want to become Winter.

Of course, in modern times, the Autumn and Spring Courts are all but gone, only vestiges are left.

I also heavily tied the Autumn Court with the Arthurian mythos. Avalon was the stronghold of the Autumn Court, and the Lady of the Lake was the Lady of the Autumn Court.

[Silverblaze]

It's "Der Erlkoenig". Just because Peabody screwed up his german doesn't mean everyone has to

Thank you.

[Wyrdrune]

I also heavily tied the Autumn Court with the Arthurian mythos. Avalon was the stronghold of the Autumn Court, and the Lady of the Lake was the Lady of the Autumn Court.

I like that idea.

[Obsid]

I like Erlking for Autumn King... but I'm not really sure about this...

I think all 12 months are divided and reflect the 6 Queens.

The Faerie Ladies are young and ambitious. They is Late Spring that brings warmth into the world, and Late Autumn in which the last leaves fall and the first frosts are seen.

The Faerie Queens are mature and dominant. They are Midsummer and Midwinter which reflect the height of their seasons.

The Faerie Mothers are old and wise. They are Early Autumn and Early Spring, which still reflect the warmth and chill of their full seasons, but are wise enough to yield and preserve balance.

This definitely fits to describe the Queens in their personalities and behaviors, but it does seem to contradict the passing of power at Midsummer and Midwinter. I could probably come up with something to reconcile this, but that's messy.

Of course, the passing of power being from Summer to Winter and Winter to Summer also contradicts the idea of Autumn and Spring Courts. Maybe in the past it was different, or maybe Autumn and Spring are more distant from the Mortal World. The Erlking is definitely more disinterested than the Queens after all. A second Table could reconcile this, but that's also messy.

In a nutshell, Autumn and Spring Courts would be cool, and you guys have come up with awesome ideas, but they don't quite fit into the Dresdenverse without making things messy.

[devonapple]

In a nutshell, Autumn and Spring Courts would be cool, and you guys have come up with awesome ideas, but they don't quite fit into the Dresdenverse without making things messy.

Perhaps, but the DFRPG book (YS 75) does mention this likelihood, albeit as a "what if" scenario. That makes it not quite canon, but not so easily dismissed, either. Still messy, though.

[funnybonzo]

It's "Der Erlkoenig". Just because Peabody screwed up his german doesn't mean everyone has to

I was under the impression that Peabody's mistranslation of German was purposeful for the specific use of the Dark Hallow.  Perhaps I am mistaken? 

If it were up to me, changing "Der" to "Das" in his translations would allow the wizard to summon an Erlkoenig that would have none of the personality but all of the power  - no longer a "he" but an "it" - to be controlled without a will to fight against the compulsion.  Like a Fae zombie.  Now that's a scary thought.

[funnybonzo]

Also, Harry mentions several times that the Nevernever is much more vast than we realize.  We know absolutely nothing of the history of the Nevernever; so what if the Summer and Winter courts not only exchange power at mid summer and mid winter, but what if they also change out with Spring and Autumn at certain times?  Like every 500 years or so.

Its also possible that all of the Wild Fae are the deposed Spring/Autumn courts.  If so, where is/what happened to Oberon?

[stitchy1503]

My autumn and spring courts are more like rebel factions. They got beat down by Summer and Winter and now hide out pretending to be Wyld Fae, they launch random attacks on Summer and Winter interests in attempts to grab back some of the power they used to have.

[BobForPresident]

I like Erlking for Autumn King... but I'm not really sure about this...

I think all 12 months are divided and reflect the 6 Queens.

Yeah. But godforbid the seasonal royalty has some dudes in it. Am I right??? Represent.

[Llayne]

In the game I played in, Autumn and Spring were disposed from the great cycle and have gone into hiding. The stories have Oberon alternating between Titiania's consort and Mabs... so the Queen's team up and removed them from the cycle.

It also had to do with the more obscure or harder to define nature of Spring and Autumn... both are more 'transitional' in nature than the Summer and Winter extremes. Humans could only wrap their heads around Winter and Summer, Good and Bad, so their dealings with the Kings dwindled which was the start of their decline.

Adseelie (Spring) Magic was generally aligned with Earth and Abseelie (Autumn) Magic was aligned with Air and photomancy (the odd light of dusk plays tricks on the eye, etc...).

We did Father - King - Lord as their titles. Elves and Sylphs were some of the main autumn races, Gnomes, Brownies and Dwarves were part of spring. That was originally of course, most were either wyld fae or aligned with one of the other courts in play.

In order to restore his place in the great cycle Oberon (the Autumn King, the Fisher King, etc...) had gone into hiding and was slowly building power. He needed to find the Spring King (who I beleive I was going to name Merovec - Oberon's brother in some legends) because neither one could rejoin the cycle alone... balance and all that.

The Spring King seemed to have lost so much of his former power that he faded completely. Seattle was the last stronghold of Spring - which gave rise to the Emerald City and associated stories - so that was where Overon (through his son Waylen - the Autumn Lord) sent my character to do stuff.

A legends speaks of Oberon hooking up his son Walbert (Waylen in our game) with a princess of constantinople.. I decided that this continued into modern day and that he was siring changling bastards left and right. Then pushing them to choose their Fae heritage and helping build the Autumn Court.

My guy ( a changeling) was eventually going to become the Autumn Knight. Or not... you know how things change in play. This was a Hard Rain Falls -Seattle btw.

[tetrasodium]

The game I play in has those courts being patriarchal, Father - King - Prince

Spring: Oberon is king - rebirth, sexuality (most creatures breed in spring), compassion, growth, life, similar to summer...even more chaotic than summer in general.

Autumn: Das Erlkoenig rules - decay, hunting, invoking weakness, strength, survival of the fittest, death, similar to winter...more orderly than summer but less orderly than winter.

Something about this post flipped a mental switch and got the gears turning  different way in my brain.  Summer is things like unchecked growth warmth and fire, Winter is cold death sleep (based on

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Lea's actions in changes when susan is mistaken as an "intruder" while dresden is out

) air & darkness..   
The erlking's dominion is pretty well defined in OW where it says outright that he's a

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wyldfae

.  His dominion could easily include things like marshaling troops and all the things that go along with preparing for war with a shift like Winter's inclusion of sleep.  The erlking seems too honorable for war itself though.  He doesn't seem like the type to be too happy about being fully bound by the accords, maybe he found a loophole that allowed him to repurpose war into hunt and autum court into goblins to unshackle them from some portion of the accords they disliked.. but going against their nature caused the goblins to be harmed by light and misshapen

With war opened up that gives a nice spot for spring to fit in...  Spring is a time of change, maybe spring could represent change, dishonor, trickery(loki*), the devouring nature oof flame**, war itself, dishonor & dishonorable death*** and time.

I think it goes well since erlking translates to elfking and dresden's

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circle

was made by a

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svartelf(dark elf)

which were norse(I think?!, not sure on that spelling though) Maybe they stayed closer to their original nature and avoided the warping goblins suffered.

The structure and rules of the accords would kind of be opposed to the devouring and trickery inherent in this version of fall... maybe they refused to join the accords or tried to underine the process and split their own way into the force that reshapes/relinks never and lower gods like thor & heimdall(s?) were previously part of spring/autum but split at the same time



*Loki was always a bit of an outsider among the norse gods, maybe humans just got a fae confused with gods like odin because the two were frequently at odds, odin seems like the type to try and protect humans from the conflict by not going out of his way to set the record straight and let them think they have more of a chance in standing against a mere fae rather than a god they thought him to be... and Loki might be happy to  engage in the trickery by suggesting that he is a god without outright saying it. I can think of a story that meets those qualities while also doing it without actually speaking a lie if a few wordings were chosen carefully http://library.thinkquest.org/25326/Viking/thor.html  read the story... "My name is Skrymir" could easily be truthful if the actual wording were more like "you may b=call me" or something instead of "my name is".  The rest could be covered in a similar manner or by having a mortal make introoductions.  Plus it and loki's children could qualify as some pretty badassed fae

**summer represents unchecked growth and warmth, they have the heat of flame down pat, but devouring would be antithetical to summer's nature. but it fits well with both the thor/loki-giant story while also fitting in with winter/summer.  Summer is unchecked growth and winter is sleep/death, fall/autum is when nature gets itelf into the swing of devouring itself to defend against the death that winter brings so it gets reduced to mere sleep.
*** if erlking was spring, that leave a a gap for the spirits of those who died outside of the hunt/honorable circumstances and loki's daughter Hel's keep was where the those who died without honor went.  Trickery is anything but honorable so dishonor fits well there