Some combat and magic related questions

[Rechan]

Stress

1) Are consequences unique to their track, or do you only have 4 Period? For instance, let's say that I just came out of a Mental conflict and I have a moderate Mental consequence. Suddenly I get into a fight. Does this mean that I can't take a Physical Moderate Consequence, or is that only in the Mental track?

2) Consequences eat up stress that already exists, as well as incoming stress? For instance, let's say that all four of my stress boxes are filled in. Suddenly in comes a 3-stress hit. I take a moderate consequence, which is -4. That would be 3-4=-1. Would any of my stress boxes be freed up by this "left over" negative? Or is it only incoming stress?

Magic stuff:

3) Can evocation or thaumaturgy be taken by themselves, or must they come together? All the packages in the book (except FP) require you to take them both. Focused Practitioner lets you take a watered down version of one or the other. But can you pick up one, without the other?

4) Let's say I wanted to destroy someone's armor. Either Kevlar or something like Harry's coat. How would I go about doing that with something like say, Water magic? Sure I can use maneuvers to put Aspects on the target, but I want to destroy the armor period.

5) Also it's reasonable, based on Water's description, to throw around attacks like a gout of acid that Someone uses in Turn Coat?

6) How does Binder do his thing? How would you do that within the rules?

7) Let's say that a badguy rigs a boobytrap in a box to go off when it's opened. Either magical, or he puts a monster in the box (say, a ghost is haunting an item and the item is in the box). The box is mailed to a person. The person brings it inside their home. Does the threshold have any effect? In the case of the monster, it wasn't invited. Same with the spell. If the monster (such as the ghost) isn't effected by the threshold coming in, can it leave, or is it trapped?

[Papa Gruff]

1) Without any stunts you have only one consequence each which together cover every stress track. Your example is correct. In case you have taken a moderate mental you can't take a moderate physical anymore.

2) Consequences only eat up incoming stress. They don't clear existing stress from the track. That said the answer is no.

3) Yes. You can take up Evocation or Thaumaturgie by themselfs in a custom character template.

4) Breaking armor is a tricky thing in this system. There is a breaking table in the book but generally speaking there is little use to breaking armor because it would require a higher effort then just maneuvering for a bonus. I'd just go with maneuvering and letting narration cover it if necessary.

5) Yes. That is reasonable.

6) We don't know. But Binder probably draws a circle and starts summoning, probably using true names or other aids to make it easier.

7) This is a little bit tricky because it isn't easy to answer. I'd say the threshold counts as there is no inviting involved. I like to think that is why nobody in the novels tries to do this stuff to Harry. That solves the last part of the question too...

[Rechan]

That was quick! Thanks.

4) Well it might be cheaper, but then if you can just destroy the armor right out, then all attacks after that point have to no longer deal with it. Besides. If you want to resort to maneuvers, that means that you need to set the maneuver so it lasts a while - it has enough shifts to make it Sticky long enough to service for several exchanges.

6) Damn. Binder could bind a lot of those guys. By the rules I would expect that he'd have to renew that bidning a lot, or else he's got them over a barrel.

7) Actually, Harry does check the envelope that Mavra sends him for boobytraps. I think it would be harder to sucker a wizard, but someone who isn't a wizard...

[Brackenfur]

4) You could also negotiate it as a consequence, that the armor is weakened or destroyed. That way it stays with the character until he could mend or replace it.

6) Yeah summoning is a little tricky.
      Evil Hat added this to help: http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/2011/01/19/summoning/
      Scanaphrax compiled some homebrew rules of which summoning was a weighted topic
          1st set: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24744.msg1084269.html#msg1084269
          2nd set: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24744.msg1084958.html#msg1084958
   
7) I think the threshold would still hold up or some one would have bumped Harry off in said fashion. We don't see all of them but Harry has a lot of precautions set up. He's pretty paranoid.     

[Rechan]

I was more thinking of destroying armor against NPC opponents. Weapons can be disarmed, after all, so I imagine a PC might want to disarm the armor, or neutralize it completely.

Thanks for the links!

[Richard_Chilton]

Since Changes isn't covered by the game system yet I've used the spoiler tag - I probably don't need to but why not?

(click to show/hide)

I think we could model Binder as someone who made a lot of deals on the otherside and could conjure bodies.

From YS274
""...creating enough faux frogs to overrun a city park could be 11 or more—5 for the basic frog, +2 several times over for quantity."

Bump up from frog to the "can't really pass for human" bodies that Binder used would be something like +3 - 5, bring it from 11 to 14 - 16 for a mob of human like bodies.

The deal he made with the otherside thing could be a massive binding that made him famous (say a 30+ step rite that has them at his beck and call for years) or it might be a: "You can't walk around on Earth because you don't have bodies.  I can make you bodies.  Let's talk." type deal.

Mechanically he would have Ritual (Binder's Path), with Binder's Path being something worked out between the player and the GM to allow him to get his minions from the Nevernever.  That or thaumaturgy with lots of refinements in one area...  No, he's referred to a one trick pony so that's unlikely that he has the generalist power of thaumaturgy.

What sort of powers would Binder's path have? My view:
- limited conjuration; he can conjure bodies for things but he can't conjure objects
- summoning and binding only for certain classes of creatures
- maybe the ability to enter the Nevernever to bargain, maybe not.

If he has rituals, I see him having focus items to boost his power.

Richard

[Haru]

I think Binders minions could be created as some sort of multiple entity construct, much like the snakes in the book. I would probably do them like this:

Add 1 shift of power for each creature you want to summon and maybe 1 shift of power to let them last longer than a scene. Since you usually just need them for 1 scene, that is not going to do much.

Then, every single one of them has every skill on average (+1). If they act in unison (and if it makes sense), they add up their skills, and the summoner can use that skill to replace his own (again: if it makes sense).

For example: There are 6 of those creatures working for Binder at the moment.
If they are spread out, they can make an alertness roll at 6, or rather Binder can make an alertness roll using his minions combined skill of 6 instead of his own, representing how they can cover much more ground. Their strength literally is in numbers.

If they are running to catch someone, they can't combine their skills, of course, but if they are placed strategically to cut of anyone who tries to run, they can add up to get a combined roll.

Or the summoner could use them to form a block in front of him at strength 6.

Of course you could also have some of them put aside for other tasks, so you could have 4 of them

This would probably work for everything, although a group of them attacking would be really tough. But given the scene in TC, I guess that is accurate. You would not simply charge into a group like that, you would have to limit the number of goons that can attack you at any given time or take different measures all together.

Of course, they are going to be pretty fragile, because individually, they have any defence skill at 1 and just 2 stressboxes with no consequences, so any half decent attack is going to drop one of them (great use of the spray attack option here ).


And to answer Question 7:
The threshold would most certainly hold up. The rules for thresholds are pretty much (like) the rules of hospitality, and that means, an invitation has to be spoken out to the subject in order to have an effect, even if the invitation is extended under false pretences (aka some in disguise). Just getting dragged along would not qualify for that.

[Sanctaphrax]

7. I'd consider carrying someone into your house to be an invitation. If it isn't, then that opens up some interesting possibilities for grapplers.

6. I actually use Binder as an example on that homebrew rules thread, as you may have noticed. That covers the way I think he operates. His ability to summon enormous mobs probably means that he's done some serious prep work ahead of time.

Incidentally, he's got (non-canon) stats. These were written by Deadmanwalking and posted to the Harry's Stats as of Small Favor/Turn Coat plus Assorted Other Stat Revisions thread.

Name: Binder (I don't remember his real name, and don't own Turn Coat to look it up)
Aspects:
High Concept: Summoner for Hire
Other:
Principles? What are those?
Smart About Mayhem
Hardened Criminal
Knows the Supernatural

Skills:

Great: Conviction, Discipline, Guns, Lore,
Good: Contacts, Deceit, Endurance, Resources
Fair: Alertness, Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth
Average: Burglary, Investigation, Presence, Scholarship,

Stunts:

Paranoid? Probably (Alertness) (+2 to Alertness to avoid surprise) (-1)
Binding Will (Conviction) (+2 to Conviction for the sole purpose of Binding summoned creatures in a circle or to his will) (-1)
Takes One to Know One (Deceit) (Can use Deceit instead of Empathy to catch someone in a lie) (-1)
Cool Headed (Discipline) (May use Discipline to defend against social skills, including the Closing Down trapping of Rapport) (-1)
Hand-Eye Coordination (Guns) (May use Guns instead of Weapons for thrown weapons.) (-1)
Avoiding Fire (Guns) (He may use Guns as a defensive skill, gaining the Dodge trapping of Athletics on it.) (-1)

Powers:

Ritual (Summoning and Binding) [-2]
Refinement [–3]

Total: -11 Refresh

Focus Items:
Summoning Orb (+4 Complexity with Summoning and Binding)
Summoning Staff (+4 Control with Summoning and Binding)

Note: Both are kept in a sanctum somewhere guarded by summoned minions. He doesn’t take them into the field.

Stress:

Mental: OOOO
Physical: OOOO
Social: OOO
Armor: 2, with kevlar.

Notes:

So here’s Binder. A supernatural mercenary with one trick, but in his state of the art summoning circle, he’s world class at that one trick, being able to throw out Complexity 8 Summonings casually, and up to 12 or 14 without too much effort, and all with no risk at all of failing the rolls (4 shifts per roll with an effective 8 Discipline). He’s also a bit of  a gunman, and dangerous with modern weapons if given the opportunity, this is speculative, but not unreasonable (note the grenades he used). He’s also surprisingly bright and good at his job.

[devonapple]

6) Yeah summoning is a little tricky.
      Evil Hat added this to help: http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/2011/01/19/summoning/

Nice! Thank you for posting that!

[Todjaeger]

Name: Binder (I don't remember his real name, and don't own Turn Coat to look it up)

Ernest Armand Tinwhistle, per Warden Morgan, Turn Coat Chapter 19.