Author Topic: Attack spells that last more than one exchange  (Read 26841 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2012, 05:15:43 PM »
They discuss "summoning a sword with magic" in the book, which is discouraged because it's dispellable and not particularly better than real swords since they have to be summoned and have a duration purchased (they're not available on the fly when you need them) in addition to them needing to be wielded.
Well, that was specifically referring to thaumaturgy, I believe, rather than Evocation. With evocation it'd be available on the fly, but wouldn't have the duration of an Evocation-made blade. Consider it like (spoilers for Changes):

(click to show/hide)

The difference is that if that 8-shift Evocation Block is exceeded by its target (unlikely but possible) it will go down, and can't be Prolonged.

The Prolonged Evocation Attack will end if someone takes out the Wizard, but then so would the Block.
The prolonged evocation attack would still require him to take action, though, and if he's using the attack, he's not going to be able to set up a block to defend himself, whereas if he's set up the block, he can keep attacking with impunity. As Orladdin said, actions are the most valuable resource here.

Plus, an enemy caster could simply counterspell the attack, just like in the book's 'summoned sword' example.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 05:21:00 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline sinker

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2012, 05:23:11 PM »
That character could easily set up an 8 shift Block for the same amount of time which is still 80 shifts he's not paying for, making him all but untouchable to anything besides another wizard. If it's unbalanced one way, how is it not unbalanced the other?

And with the 10-round block, he'd be able to do other things. With the 10-round spell, he'd still have to spend an action every turn to direct that spell and still risk missing entirely.

The thing is that a block is not active, it's not progressing you towards a goal. Those shifts aren't as unbalancing because of that. Additionally it isn't predictably opposed (meaning it's not always used every exchange), and it can be battered down (relatively easily with eight shifts).

@Orladdin: You're only thinking about the action economy, which admittedly is important but there are other important bits. Like the mental stress limitation on wizards. And weapon values over four being limited in scope. When you talk about the conjuration rules you're talking about a normal weapon:2 sword, not weapon:8.

I would suggest you do one thing. Try it. When we tried it it was very clearly unbalancing. The wizard running around with a weapon:8 for the entire conflict (didn't last long with that kind of power flying around). It wouldn't even be too hard to get a weapon:10 or 12 with extra stress or a mild consequence. So yeah, try it.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 05:33:14 PM by sinker »

Offline devonapple

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2012, 05:25:08 PM »
The prolonged evocation attack would still require him to take action, though, and if he's using the attack, he's not going to be able to set up a block to defend himself, whereas if he's set up the block, he can keep attacking with impunity. As Orladdin said, actions are the most valuable resource here.

Actions are a valuable resource for every character, but Mental Stress is particularly valuable for a Spellcaster.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2012, 05:37:43 PM »
I would suggest you do one thing. Try it. When we tried it it was very clearly unbalancing. The wizard running around with a weapon:8 for the entire conflict (didn't last long with that kind of power flying around). It wouldn't even be too hard to get a weapon:10 or 12 with extra stress or a mild consequence. So yeah, try it.
I would have thought the issue would be more one of longevity than speed--I honestly haven't seen a conflict last more than three or four exchanges anyway in my experience. Were the fights any shorter than if the wizard was, instead, able to cast a Weapon:8 spell the first round, Weapon:9 the second, Weapon:10 the third, etc? If the wizard's throwing all his might into straight up attacking anyway there isn't much that's going to be standing at the end of four rounds whether it cost him one shift or 4--and once again, everyone else is going to get a turn too. If he needs 10 rounds to take out 10 ghouls, that means that he's going to have to dodge or endure attacks from whoever's left at the end of each of his turns.

Having the Weapon:8 spell flying around might be devastating for whatever it hits, but it locks the wizard into action: He has to attack with the single-target Weapon:8 spell if he wants to make use of it, he probably shouldn't be able to change it into, say, a spray attack or a zone attack without giving up the endurance of it. He gets a couple spells for free, yes, but at the cost of strictly limiting his options for those turns.
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Offline Orladdin

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2012, 05:42:02 PM »
@Orladdin: You're only thinking about the action economy, which admittedly is important but there are other important bits. Like the mental stress limitation on wizards. And weapon values over four being limited in scope. When you talk about the conjuration rules you're talking about a normal weapon:2 sword, not weapon:8.

I would suggest you do one thing. Try it. When we tried it it was very clearly unbalancing. The wizard running around with a weapon:8 for the entire conflict (didn't last long with that kind of power flying around). It wouldn't even be too hard to get a weapon:10 or 12 with extra stress or a mild consequence. So yeah, try it.

I edited my post (presumably while you were typing this response) to clarify this point.  Yeah, I considered that.  Whatever you get shouldn't be exceedingly more powerful than a normal object of about the same size would be, given better materials or sharpened edges or whatnot.  A weapon: 8 sword would be pretty out of the question just for sanity-check sake.
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Offline ways and means

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2012, 05:42:55 PM »
I like the Environmental Hazard extension idea especially for zones (Power equals shifts vs endurance) though it doesn't makes sense versus a single target. I also allow players to use light saber extension you create a sword of fire which you use weapons to hit with. 
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2012, 05:46:18 PM »
I edited my post (presumably while you were typing this response) to clarify this point.  Yeah, I considered that.  Whatever you get shouldn't be exceedingly more powerful than a normal object of about the same size would be, given better materials or sharpened edges or whatnot.  A weapon: 8 sword would be pretty out of the question just for sanity-check sake.
If you're strictly trying to imitate a real sword, sure. But given how we've seen wizards in the canon focus their energies for what are likely Weapon:5-6 effects into tight, small packages like laser beams and tiny motes of flame, you would be able to make a higher Weapon effect shaped like a sword if you had the muscle to pull it off.
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Offline sinker

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2012, 05:48:24 PM »
I would have thought the issue would be more one of longevity than speed--I honestly haven't seen a conflict last more than three or four exchanges anyway in my experience. Were the fights any shorter than if the wizard was, instead, able to cast a Weapon:8 spell the first round, Weapon:9 the second, Weapon:10 the third, etc? If the wizard's throwing all his might into straight up attacking anyway there isn't much that's going to be standing at the end of four rounds whether it cost him one shift or 4--and once again, everyone else is going to get a turn too. If he needs 10 rounds to take out 10 ghouls, that means that he's going to have to dodge or endure attacks from whoever's left at the end of each of his turns.

Having the Weapon:8 spell flying around might be devastating for whatever it hits, but it locks the wizard into action: He has to attack with the single-target Weapon:8 spell if he wants to make use of it, he probably shouldn't be able to change it into, say, a spray attack or a zone attack without giving up the endurance of it. He gets a couple spells for free, yes, but at the cost of strictly limiting his options for those turns.

Except there's also the redirecting spell energy rule. If at any point the wizard wants to stop attacking he can simply convert the spell into a block or a maneuver. No shifts lost or anything.

Right now you're thinking about a fight with mooks, etc. Something that isn't likely to last more than a couple of rounds. What about your big bad? The conflict that you want to last a while and seem challenging. How are you going to do that with the wizard throwing huge attacks, and the mortals dealing less than half that?

Offline sinker

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2012, 05:52:07 PM »
Nevermind, I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing now. Try it, see what you think.

Personally I would maneuver and invoke for an environmental attack or use a spray over exchanges like UmbraLux suggested.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2012, 06:38:41 PM »
Except there's also the redirecting spell energy rule. If at any point the wizard wants to stop attacking he can simply convert the spell into a block or a maneuver. No shifts lost or anything.
And just as converting a block into an attack ends the effect, you shouldn't keep the longevity of an attack if you change it into a block or maneuver. He shouldn't be able to switch it back and forth at will.

One suggestion might be to make him roll Discipline to hold onto the energy every round whether he's using the energy or not to keep controlling it, and enforce Backlash or Fallout if he doesn't make the roll. That way, he's still got the power there for free, but there's always the risk--especially if he's keeping up a full-strength spell--that he's going to lose his concentration and thus lose the power.

Quote
Right now you're thinking about a fight with mooks, etc. Something that isn't likely to last more than a couple of rounds. What about your big bad? The conflict that you want to last a while and seem challenging. How are you going to do that with the wizard throwing huge attacks, and the mortals dealing less than half that?
The Big Bad ought to be big and bad enough that he can figure out a way to counter it--maybe he hits the caster for a consequence, and tags it to say, "And he's so rattled from the PUNCH IN THE SNOZZ that he can't keep a hold of that fireball anymore." Or the GM can throw a compel the caster's way to discourage it in some manner.

So how's this for a proposal:

A caster can create a multiple-exchange attack by devoting one shift of effect to each additional exchange. For each exchange that the attack is active, the caster must roll Discipline to maintain the hold on the spell, involving fallout or backlash as normal if he fails to make the difficulty equal to the spell's Weapon rating, regardless of whether he is attacking with the spell that exchange. If the caster is attacking using the spell energy, the Discipline roll will serve as the targeting roll as well.

The caster may not cast any new spells while the first is active. If the caster attempts a separate action while the spell is active, either the Discipline roll or the main action roll must be made at a penalty of -1, similarly to the supplemental action rules. The caster may convert the spell energy into a Block or Maneuver, but any change to the spell's parameters--including converting it into a zone attack or a spray attack--forfeits the spell's remaining longevity.

Example: It is just not Harry's day (but when is it ever?), and some Red Court vampires have come to say hi. Harry decides that he can't make an effective spray attack with his Discipline skill given how many vampires are after him, and he doesn't want to risk frying himself with a zone attack, so he decides to try a multiple-exchange attack. He summons up a Weapon:4 fireball, and gives it three exchanges of longevity, and rolls very well, getting a solid 7 to control, putting a big flaming hole through the first vampire. After dodging a couple strikes, he throws it at a second vampire, rolling a 4 to successfully control the energy, and singes it. Harry decides it might be a good idea to get out of dodge, and decides to devote his next turn to doing so--he decides it's more important to get out of the zone, which has a border that will stop at least some of the vampires, so he decides to make his Athletics roll at normal, and roll his Discipline from the penalty. As a result, he makes it over the border, but only rolls a 2 on Discipline, and takes two shifts of backlash to maintain his hold on the spell. The barrier stops the vampires, though, so on his next turn, Harry decides to let'em have it: He converts the spell into a Weapon:2 zone attack, and manages an Epic roll, cooking nearly all the vampires he'd left behind.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 07:17:53 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2012, 07:09:24 PM »
So how's this for a proposal:

A caster can create a multiple-exchange attack by devoting one shift of effect to each additional exchange. For each exchange that the attack is active, the caster must roll Discipline to maintain the hold on the spell, involving fallout or backlash as normal if he fails to make the difficulty equal to the spell's Weapon rating, regardless of whether he is attacking with the spell that exchange. If the caster is attacking using the spell energy, the Discipline roll will serve as the targeting roll as well.

The caster may not cast any new spells while the first is active. If the caster attempts a separate action while the spell is active, either the Discipline roll or the main action roll must be made at a penalty of -1, similarly to the supplemental action rules. The caster may convert the spell energy into a Block or Maneuver, but any change to the spell's parameters--including converting it into a zone attack or a spray attack--forfeits the spell's remaining longevity.

I'm liking this more and more. There is plausible risk for the spellcaster, and the mechanics are in alignment with both the metagame and narrative components of the proposed action. This feels like an acceptable way to do this.
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Offline Orladdin

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2012, 07:16:58 PM »
I'm liking this more and more. There is plausible risk for the spellcaster, and the mechanics are in alignment with both the metagame and narrative components of the proposed action. This feels like an acceptable way to do this.

Yeah, looks OK.  Obviously, I'd want to see how it plays before I greenlit it for constant-use.

Nice one, Mr. Death.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2012, 07:18:50 PM »
Thanks. Like I said, my game's got someone who wants to do the lightsaber thing, so I'm gonna playtest it there and see how it goes.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2012, 07:21:54 PM »
Still has the problem of an unparalleled mental stress discount.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Attack spells that last more than one exchange
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2012, 07:26:50 PM »
Still has the problem of an unparalleled mental stress discount.
Well, some mental stress discount is pretty much the point. And it's only really significant if the caster always makes the control roll, which would encourage them to keep the Weapon rating of the spell well under what their effective Discipline was if they want to make it last more than one or two rounds safely.

Going by the Weapon:8/10 rounds spell before, presuming the caster's effective discipline there is 8, he's only got 4 Physical and 2 mental stress boxes left for backlash (and that's presuming he made both the initial rolls), and he's going to be taking backlash maybe half of those rounds. It'd only take a couple bad rolls before he's either taking consequences, filling up his track, or having to deal with a weaker spell.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 07:31:37 PM by Mr. Death »
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