Thaumaturgy and Time

[Crion]

I'm not certain if I'm missing a note somewhere or misreading something, but is there a minimum amount of time needed to perform a Thaumaturgy spell?

If I read everything correctly, you need to have a Lore rating equal to the complexity of the spell before it could be cast and, in an emergency situation, you can essentially do an extended evocation in order to cast the spell in that time.

So, if a character with the equivalent of Lore 6 (after focus items) wanted to put up a 6 Shift Ward ASAP, he could theoretically do so in one turn, correct? Is this an exception to the rule of Sponsored Magic offering "Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation," or is there something I am missing?

Thanks in advance for the input!

--Crion

[crusher_bob]

The rules for thaumaturgy are not exactly well developed. 

Exactly how long each 'pass' of summoning power takes is not clear, but the implication is that it is longer than a combat turn.  So those people with a 'at the speed of evocation' advantage can still pull things off faster.

You don't need a lore rating equal to the complexity of the spell.  You lore (plus any bonuses) just determines your base complexity.  You can, for example, make zero time declarations, invoke aspects, etc to raise your base complexity too.

I offer you this house rules.

[Haru]

I think, there is an example in the book, where Harry puts up a ward in 3 exchanges, so 1 "pass" of summoning power is equal to 1 exchange.

I think the big difference is, that you need the entire exchange for your thaumaturgy ward, even if you pull it up in 1 exchange. That means, that anything that happens might break your concentration, and result in fallout/backlash and the spell not finished. Thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation is much more than thaumaturgy in 1 exchange, because it does not last longer than throwing a fireball or something, you just wave your hand, mumble a word and voosh, there is your ward, and there is no way to interrupt you like a thaumaturgy ritual (and even if it takes only 1 exchange, it still is a ritual).

At least that is how I have decided to use the rules, because as crusher_bob said, they are pretty vague.

[UmbraLux]

I'm not certain if I'm missing a note somewhere or misreading something, but is there a minimum amount of time needed to perform a Thaumaturgy spell?

Time in DFRPG generally works 'at the speed of plot'.  One combat exchange may be fractions of a second while another is minutes or even longer. 

Thaumaturgy should probably take minutes to days depending on complexity though sponsored magic may reduce that to seconds.  But it's really a question of what fits the current situation.

[Bruce Coulson]

Generally, I use the rule of thumb that the actual casting/building of power takes a number of exchanges equal to the Difficulty divided by the Lore of the caster.  (So, a wizard with a Lore of 4 could actually cast a Difficulty 12 ritual in three exchanges.)  This allows for people who'd like to interrupt such a ritual, (like, say, some powerful fae in an old auto parts building that about to be set on fire for 30 minutes) to send some henchmen to knock the wizard about for a bit.

The time needed pre-casting depends on the complexity, and usually take several days to gather the information, material, links, etc.

[EdgeOfDreams]

Generally, I use the rule of thumb that the actual casting/building of power takes a number of exchanges equal to the Difficulty divided by the Lore of the caster.  (So, a wizard with a Lore of 4 could actually cast a Difficulty 12 ritual in three exchanges.)

But that goes against the direct rules in the book about calling up power for thaumaturgy and controlling it with discipline.

The rules explicitly state you can do a ritual with a complexity up to your lore score with no prep.  And you can summon up as many shifts of power per exchange as you like (limited by mental stress, discipline rolls, etc.).  So, with Lore 3, Discipline 5, and Conviction 4, I can tag an aspect to do a no-prep 5-shift ritual, summon up 5 shifts of power (taking 1 mental stress), and with a decent roll, control that power to finish the ritual all in one exchange.

[Sanctaphrax]

The definition of "exchange" is rather fluid.

Thaumaturgy exchanges are not necessarily the same as combat exchanges.

[devonapple]

But that goes against the direct rules in the book about calling up power for thaumaturgy and controlling it with discipline.

I *think* Bruce meant that as a guideline for getting a ballpark time investment, and that casting something more aggressively or conservatively will still decrease or increase the casting time.

And for "enemy" casters, the GM has the capacity to take narrative expediency into account, and is free to run enemy rituals as an extended challenge (pitting player success shifts against enemy success shifts) rather than by the stricter rules, in the same way that a GM can handwave a player's lower-level rituals if the capacity for failure holds no narrative value to the plot.

The definition of "exchange" is rather fluid.
Thaumaturgy exchanges are not necessarily the same as combat exchanges.

Also, what Sanctaphrax said. The majority interpretation of the Thaumaturgy rules seems to be that even a ritual you can cast without declarations, without preparation, takes at least a minute, which could actually end up spanning several combat exchanges if it is a quick situation.

[Haru]

Also, what Sanctaphrax said. The majority interpretation of the Thaumaturgy rules seems to be that even a ritual you can cast without declarations, without preparation, takes at least a minute, which could actually end up spanning several combat exchanges if it is a quick situation.

I think in a conflict time should flow at the rate of the slowest participant. So if there is someone doing a ritual, that someone else has to protect from someone who wants to disturb it, 1 exchange should be 1 exchange of gathering power. Of course, if you are going to start a ritual mid-conflict, you would probably have to change the pace of the action first. Instead of a heated fight, you would for example have to settle for holding the enemy off instead of hitting them as fast and hard as you can, and if you can do that, the pace changes accordingly. Or maybe the scene might changes at this point, which would have the same effect, but with the added bonus of refreshed stress tracks.

[Bruce Coulson]

Thanks for the clarification, Devon; none of my casters have felt the need to 'rush' casting by summoning any more power per exchange than they could safely handle.

Of course, if the fae hounds had gotten through the other players acting as guards, it might have been another story...

[devonapple]

Thanks for the clarification, Devon; none of my casters have felt the need to 'rush' casting by summoning any more power per exchange than they could safely handle.

In the game I run, the players opted to ritually destroy something that enemies could have used as a sympathetic link back to them, but the enemy was quick enough to position a spellcasting assassin just in time to attempt to take *them* out: each round of summoning power became an opposed check as the item in question began beating itself against the ritual circle, attacking the shifts they had accumulated, so the player decided to push through the last 12 shifts all at once before something really bad happened.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

I have a house rule for my group: An exchange for a ritual is a number of minutes equal to the total complexity of the ritual.

So, if, like them, you have a Ritual with a 25 Complexity (those little law-breakers, hehehehe), then each exchange you take is 25 minutes. So, when they do any kind of ritual, they have to weigh how much time they have (since there's usually somewhere they need to be, or someone coming to get them), they will be more inclined to not take it so slowly, and as a result risk more.

That said, in a conflict I tend to forgo this rule, but they end up spending a few exchanges preparing while the bruisers of the group hold opposition off, at any rate.

[Belial666]

Let's see some of the fastest thaumaturgy in the books;

1) Harry Dresden's tracking spell. He casts it during a pursuit of a fleeing villain more than once and said villain does not manage to go more than a few blocks. Said spell has difficulty 6 to 12.
2) Warding a circle before a demon can break a trapdoor and get down the stairs. Said spell had enough shifts to block a demon's superb physical attacks.
3) Opening Ways to the Nevernever. Complexity at Harry's effective Lore without preparation/tools most of the time. Usually less than a minute of concentration, sometimes fast enough to intercept enemy attacks or block advancing enemy passage or flee in the face of danger.
4) Redirecting the Fetches in Proven guilty. Spell preparation had already been completed and only the casting remained. Casting time less than twenty seconds.
5) Binding spell vs the Loup-Garou. Strong enough to stop the Loup-Garou. Casting fast enough to stop the Loup's rampage during combat.


As you can see, it is possible to do the casting of thaumaturgy quite fast if you are prepared and the spell is within your complexity. Not as fast as evocation but it does not take too long either. As a rule of thumb, thaumaturgy casting should take as many exchanges as needed to gather the power plus one more to set the spell construct in your mind (if you are casting without physical props). So for some minor thaumaturgy, it is possible to cast them during combat in a few exchanges.

However, thaumaturgy requires said spell construct. And that construct is easily disrupted and you cannot perform other actions while casting - not even speaking or moving. So you want to cast a complexity 5 thaumaturgy during combat and have base complexity, conviction and control for it? Feel free; it takes 1 exchange for spell construct, 1 exchange to fill with power. And you can't move or defend yourself while you do it and disruption means the spell explodes in your face. If that is not invitation for someone to shoot you while casting, I dunno what is.