Sunlight spell

[Silverblaze]

It does for me; a continious, relentless attack vs endurance that by the time you get to the antidote will have reduced you to a pile of goo is not good.


Venomous is definitely not just natural poison. It guarantees that you are taken out by a single bite due to unending attacks each exchange and a great deal sooner than most poisons. It works more like an engineered 100% lethal neurotoxin than most anything else.

My group doesn't even acknowledge the existence of Venomous...too nasty... unless totally from a narative standpoint to capture the group...used very sparingly.

[Taran]

I think I like it as a maneuver.  I can invoke for effect and the Bads can get FP's.  If I were GMing, I might say that if they take the FP they'd start resisting environmental damage at "x" (I guess it would be dependant on how much power was pumped into the maneuver) unless they they left the zone or the spell duration ran out.

If they turn down the FP, all damage dealt in the zone would still meet the Catch.

Would that be a good way of doing it?

[devonapple]

Actually Devonapple, this is another reason why it's important to differentiate between the GMs ability to compel and the players ability to invoke for effect. The player isn't compelling all of those vamps (as the player technically can't compel at all), he's invoking his one aspect for effect once. That invoke however causes the aspect to become narratively important and the GM then decides if he would like to lay down all those compels on the vamps (technically compelling their high concept rather than the scene aspect, as it's usually tough to justify compelling aspects that aren't personal aspects). In my case I would compel the hell out of them because that's a) fun and b) giving the baddies a ton of fate (especially since in this case I'd likely transfer some of it from the mooks to the vamp who lost because his mooks were incinerated).

So, if I understand correctly, and I may be coming out of the woods on this:

Player A (currently sitting on 15 Fate Points) successfully places a Zonewide Aspect and Invokes for Effect (for free, as is right as the first tag) against the 15 Ghouls in the Zone; the GM takes it over as a Compel, and distributes Fate Points (out of his own supply) to the Ghouls who would plausibly survive/Concede/whatever.

Player B (currently sitting on no Fate Points) successfully places the same Zonewide Aspect, Invokes for Effect (again, for free) against the 15 Ghouls in the Zone; the GM also takes it over as a Compel, and distributes Fate Points (also out of his own supply) to the Ghouls who would plausibly survive/Concede/whatever.

Obviously, both have sadistic GMs (15 Ghouls? Really?). But is there no difference at all in how the situation should be handled for the Player with a hoard of Fate Points versus the Player without?

[Taran]

So, if I understand correctly, and I may be coming out of the woods on this:

Player A (currently sitting on 15 Fate Points) successfully places a Zonewide Aspect and Invokes for Effect (for free, as is right as the first tag) against the 15 Ghouls in the Zone; the GM takes it over as a Compel, and distributes Fate Points (out of his own supply) to the Ghouls who would plausibly survive/Concede/whatever.

Player B (currently sitting on no Fate Points) successfully places the same Zonewide Aspect, Invokes for Effect (again, for free) against the 15 Ghouls in the Zone; the GM also takes it over as a Compel, and distributes Fate Points (also out of his own supply) to the Ghouls who would plausibly survive/Concede/whatever.

Obviously, both have sadistic GMs (15 Ghouls? Really?). But is there no difference at all in how the situation should be handled for the Player with a hoard of Fate Points versus the Player without?

I know this is intended for sinker to answer, but what is the difference whether or not they have fate points?  As I see it, one player uses his the other hordes his.  The advantage for the player with 15 FP's is that if some of the Ghouls refuse the compel, in the next exchange the player can invoke the maneuver again while the player with no FP's can't.

[devonapple]

...what is the difference whether or not they have fate points?  As I see it, one player uses his the other hordes his.  The advantage for the player with 15 FP's is that if some of the Ghouls refuse the compel, in the next exchange the player can invoke the maneuver again while the player with no FP's can't.

The difference (for me) is that, per my understanding, one Invoke means one Target, and that any additional Targets require more FP.

I would be *happy* if there were more flexibility for things like this - I'm just not finding it in the RAW.

[Taran]

The difference (for me) is that, per my understanding, one Invoke means one Target, and that any additional Targets require more FP.

I would be *happy* if there were more flexibility for things like this - I'm just not finding it in the RAW.

Yeah.  That's always been a question for me.  Does an area effect let you invoke everyone in the area, or just one?  I'm assuming that that question has its own thread.  I'm also figuring that it comes down to GM interpretation/narration?

EDIT:  refocus:  Devonapple, how would you do this spell, both as the PC casting it and as the GM adjudicating it?

[devonapple]

EDIT:  refocus:  Devonapple, how would you do this spell, both as the PC casting it and as the GM adjudicating it?

Assuming I'm the stingy bastard I appear to be about Invoke for Effect:

Using Soulfire, then I would have the EvoThaum include the following effects:
x+2 shifts for Zonewide x Damage (special effect Sunlight, which would satisfy certain Catches)
and/or
y*3 shifts to place Sunlight Aspect y times (allowing free-taggable Invokes for Effect on y Vampires)

[Taran]

because this is thaumaturgy at evocation speed, is the duration based on thaumaturgy - so I could get it to last until the next morning, or are you still constrained by the durations of evocation - ie: 1 exchange and can only be extended in terms of exchanges.

Also, by the rules (I was reading the attack spells with duration thread), you can't have spells that do damage over time, so if I put extra shifts for duration, would they only apply to the maneuver and not the damage?

[devonapple]

because this is thaumaturgy at evocation speed, is the duration based on thaumaturgy - so I could get it to last until the next morning, or are you still constrained by the durations of evocation - ie: 1 exchange and can only be extended in terms of exchanges.

I feel that Evocation is the most appropriate duration for the most common uses of EvoThaum, but some effects may be eligible for longer periods of time.

Also, by the rules (I was reading the attack spells with duration thread), you can't have spells that do damage over time, so if I put extra shifts for duration, would they only apply to the maneuver and not the damage?

Just the maneuver.

Thaumaturgy death spells deal their damage all at once, canonically. You may want to check the Curses for a way to get the best of both worlds, though: I'm just not remembering the Luck Curse off the top of my head.

[sinker]

My interpretation has to do with two things. Firstly this is based on Fred's statement earlier in your thread on tagging compels. Fred said that the player invokes for effect and then the GM decides how that effect will impact the situation, negotiating and funding any compels that might crop up as a result.

So we've established that we're invoking for effect. All that does is make the aspect important or create an effect that the aspect might reasonably make. It doesn't have a target, it effects anyone that the aspect might reasonably effect. An example in the book is that one could invoke the aspect "Warden Connections" to declare that a warden is currently in town or declare that your character shows up in a scene due to his "Perfect Timing". These are effects that would have more nebulous and greater reaching consequences then one simple effect against one target.

So my reasoning is that one could invoke the "Holy Light" aspect to essentially bring the aspect to the foreground and then it would be the GM's decision as to how that effects the vamps.

[Obsid]

I might not fully understand the system, but this all seems a bit too complicated (and interesting). Correct me if I make any mistakes here.

First off, I haven't seen much talk about sunlight at all. I have seen lots of talk about Holy Light, as Sinker phrased it, which might be just as good, but not sunlight.

Why does sunlight hurt vampires? Is it inherently holy (religious angle)? Does it have something to do with the myriad of frequencies (scientific angle)? Or is it simply because it is light from the sun, daylight, an antithesis to creatures of the night (mystical angle)?

If it's because it's holy, then I guess Holy Light and Sunlight are the same thing. If it has to do with frequencies then I guess that soulfire could give a normal photomantic spell the correct structure.

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Incidentally, since photomancy is by and large fire-based, this would have been a great spell for Harry to use.

If it's because its light from the sun, then while soulfire can still give you vampire-bane light, it won't actually be sunlight.

I like the third angle. It fits best with the Sunburst in a Handkerchief, the only example of a sunlight spell I've seen. But the other angles don't really clash with the Hanky either. [/color]

If you want to cast an evocation speed thaumaturgy in battle just to kill vampires, go right ahead. It's reliable, but only useful against vampires and the like. It can easily be Holy Light, or even Sunlight depending on which angle you prefer, so it will hurt vampires enough either way. But that requires a lot more specialization (unless I'm mistaken).

The other route is to make a beefed up version of Sunburst in a Handkerchief. I like the idea of Daylight in a Bottle, but that's just me. This means you're casting a thaumaturgic spell at thaumaturgic speed. Though you're releasing it in about as much time as it takes to cast a simple evocation. This has the downsides of being an enchanted item, making it less reliable than creating the light, but it has the upsides of not requiring quite so much specialization. I think someone could do this without Soulfire, though they'll need an ounce or two of true happiness to add to the mix.

Either way you have the effect which everyone has been talking about. The best effect I think would be to add "Holy Light" or "Daylight" to the aspects of the environment. You're not actually attacking the vampires, you're just showing them the light. After that, it's in the GM's hands.

The GM should then deal damage to each vampire on the GM's prerogative. This damage is an environmental issue, it can be viewed as the Environment attacking the Vampire. I think the venomous rules give a good model but removal from the light should be an adequate antidote.

When the Vampire takes damage, it can choose to take a consequence of fleeing, screaming like a little girl, getting extra toasty, or what have you in response to this damage. That's plenty of flavor. Whether it runs to hide under a car depends on the vampire's personality, and is again an issue of the GM, though I wouldn't have many week vampires standing in the sunlight for long.

The issue of duration can be handled, in the first form, the same way extending a shield evocation is. In the second form it can be handled in the crafting of the item. Meaning that while it requires some active input to keep the evoc-thaumaturgy going, the craft thaumaturgy runs itself for a preset duration. Another example of how the evoc thaumaturgy is more reliable (you have more control over it) and the craft thaumaturgy is more convenient.

At least, that makes sense to me. I'm very new to this system, so its possible I'm missing some very important details. If my ideas are any good, I'll leave it to someone else to come up with the dirty details (numbers are messy).[/color]

[Belial666]

There was this guy named Gideon back in the days of old Israel, and wanted light to pursue his enemies. The day was ending and it seemed like his enemies would manage to give him the slip when he prayed and God made the sun stand still in the sky for several hours.

Now, obviously God did not actually make the sun stand still. He could have done so by moving the sun or stopping the Earth's rotation but that would kill just about anyone on the planet and that, I am told, is a bad thing. God probably just bent the rays of the sun as if using a really big prism or mirror and thus threw sunlight down to Gideon's area, making it seem that the sun stood still. (much like the Earth's atmosphere lengthens the duration of the day, only moreso)



Since magic can be used to pull meteors and satellites out of the sky, can it bend/reflect some sunlight so that a couple of zones in the dark hemisphere get it for a few moments? In theory, a manmade space station with a big mirror can do it - what kind of spell power would one need to do the same?

[Obsid]

There was this guy named Gideon back in the days of old Israel, and wanted light to pursue his enemies. The day was ending and it seemed like his enemies would manage to give him the slip when he prayed and God made the sun stand still in the sky for several hours.

Now, obviously God did not actually make the sun stand still. He could have done so by moving the sun or stopping the Earth's rotation but that would kill just about anyone on the planet and that, I am told, is a bad thing. God probably just bent the rays of the sun as if using a really big prism or mirror and thus threw sunlight down to Gideon's area, making it seem that the sun stood still. (much like the Earth's atmosphere lengthens the duration of the day, only moreso)



Since magic can be used to pull meteors and satellites out of the sky, can it bend/reflect some sunlight so that a couple of zones in the dark hemisphere get it for a few moments? In theory, a manmade space station with a big mirror can do it - what kind of spell power would one need to do the same?

Here's my take on this...

Sure, magic can be used to pull meteors and satellites out of the sky. It can also be used to stop the earths rotation, move the sun, or blow up the moon. It requires a combination of two things to accomplish such larger-than-life feats though. Calculation, and Power.

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Blackstaff

McCoy did indeed pull a satellite out of the sky, but what you have to ask is how. The direct method would be to grab it with an arm of magic energy and slam it where you want it to go. This would require minimal calculation, and a LOT of Power. On the flip side, if you know the forces already acting on the satellite, you should be able to calculate where to strike it with a minimal force push to throw it out of orbit and onto your enemy's head. This would require a LOT of calculation and minimal power. I use the term minimal on a relative scale in both instances.

Another option would be to open a portal that takes the satellite from where it is, and puts it where you want it to be (changing the direction of its velocity would help) I have no idea what sort of calculation or power this would require.

Redirecting sunlight would be a similar issue. Space is really big. Really really big. I don't think I can fit enough 'really's in to convey the range of this sort of spell. To reflect light correctly, you would need to conjure a mirror-like object in space. You would need a fair bit of both power and calculation. (It'd be easier to shoot down a satellite). You would need to sustain these constructs at a rediculous distance as well. Alternatively, you could generate a mini black-hole to bend the light to your will ... but please don't, I like not having black-holes eat the planet.

There's also another issue here. As far as mirrors are concerned, there's already a giant mirror reflecting the sun's light to the earth at night. We call it Moon. Somehow reflected sunlight doesn't have the same effect as direct or preserved sunlight. It could be because it lacks the full color spectrum or because the moon neutralizes the holyness or mystical properties of the sunlight, either way, you'd have to know what you're doing and make a mirror construct that bypassed this weakness.

In other words, unless you have special arrangements, it would be easier to incinerate the Vamps than to bring the light from the sun. And I think it'd be more likely for God to slow the flow or time in Gideon's area. [/color]

[Belial666]

A thousand miles is not that far considering that thaumaturgy has no range considerations at all. And a mirror the size of a park is roughly 8 shifts of power to conjure. So, provided you know what you are doing, redirecting a beam of sunlight with thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation would not need that many shifts.
As for the light of the moon not harming vamps, maybe it's because it is a half dozen orders of magnitude weaker?


Now, slowing the flow of time in a portion of the Earth? Does that mean whatever is inside will move slower? If yes, you just sent the poor guys to space as Earth is moving away at several kilometers per second. Whoops!

[Obsid]

Thaumaturgy might not have an explicit range but I would still think that's pushing it. The distance from the earth to the moon is 238,857 miles and in order to reflect sunlight adequately you'll want something similar. Also, even if you could do it with just 1k miles, you'll need a mirror significantly larger than the park, or you'll end up with an extra star in the sky.

"speeding up" or "slowing" time are essentially interchangeable terms. It's all relative after all. So I understand your confusion. But think about it for a minute, if I was referring to an effect that would make people inside a zone move slower, would that make the sun appear to stay still to them?

As for sending people into space... No. Fail. Sorry, there's no other way to put it. Even if an acceleration in the flow of time in an area caused the inhabitants to move more slowly, that sloth would not cause the centrifugal force of the earth's rotation to suddenly surpass the centripetal force of the earth's gravity.