Custom Powers Master List (Work In Progress)

[Sanctaphrax]

Your natural weapons power is great in my opinion and should simply replace breath weapon and claws.

Thanks.

The rest I need to think about and run through a few scenarios in my head.

Again, thanks.

It's much better when there's more than one person thinking about these things.

Physical Immunity we are getting to the end of and it'll likely be finished soon and ready for the list.

I sure hope so.

So, how about the newer Powers?

[Tedronai]

I've been contemplating ways to integrate the Natural Weapons rewrite with the Incite Effect rewrite.

[Sanctaphrax]

Good luck with that.

I had some thoughts in that direction myself, but they didn't amount to anything.

[Silverblaze]

I see where the line of thinking comes from.  I just feel they should remain seperate.

[Sanctaphrax]

Alright, round one of edits to the new Powers.

I've been told Supernatural Martial Arts looks weak, but that it's multi-attacks look too strong. So I monkeyed with the costs. How do they look now?

Incite Effect needed a wording clear-up. Still agonizing over the range issue, I'd really like to hear other people's opinions on it.

People say that Prophecy seemed unimpressive. Tedronai recommended including a +2, and I was going to do that until I had the idea of moving Avoiding Surprise to Lore. How does that sound to everyone?

I also wrote up combat-time precognition, please tell me what you think of it.

INCITE EFFECT [-1]
Description: You can do a thing. A special thing, that cannot be done by most people. Maybe you can control clouds of smoke, maybe you can inflict fear by shouting. Or maybe you can summon the aid of two thousand invisible squirrels. Whatever.
Skills Affected: Any.
Effects:
Incite Effect. Pick a type of effect and a skill that's related to that type of effect. You can use that skill plus two to perform maneuvers and blocks related to that type of effect against anything you can touch. At the GM's discretion, this may also enable Declarations.
At Range [-1]. You may use Incite Effect at a range of one zone.
At Long Range [-1]. (Requires At Range) You may use Incite Effect on anything within your line of sight.
Incite Physical Effect [-1]. You may use Incite Effect to perform attacks that inflict physical stress. These attacks have a weapon rating of 2. They use the same skill as your maneuvers and blocks, but without the +2 bonus. If you have the At Range upgrade, then targets use their Endurance to defend against these attacks. If you do not have the At Range upgrade, then targets defend against these attacks as though they were ordinary Fists attacks.
Incite Avoidable Physical Effect [-0]. (Requires Incite Physical Effect At Range) The targets of your Incite Physical Effect attacks defend with Athletics.
Incite Mental Effect [-1]. You may use Incite Effect to perform attacks that inflict mental stress. These attacks have a weapon rating of 2. They use the same skill as your maneuvers and blocks, but without the +2 bonus. If you have the At Range upgrade, then targets must use their Discipline to defend against these attacks. If you do not have the At Range upgrade, then targets may use whatever skill they would use against ordinary Fists attacks instead.
Incite Potent Effect [-1]. (Requires Incite Physical Effect or Incite Mental Effect) Attacks that you make with Incite Effect are weapon 4.
Incite Protective Effect [-1]. You may use your the skill that you use for Incite Effect to defend against physical attacks.
Incite Restrictive Effect [-1]. (Requires Incite Physical Effect or Incite Mental Effect) You may use Incite Effect to grapple targets within the range of this Power, using the skill that you use for Incite Effect. Grappling with a physical effect inflicts physical stress, while grappling with a mental effect inflicts mental stress.
Incite Mass Effect [-1]. (Requires Incite Physical Effect or Incite Mental Effect) You may make spray attacks and attack zones with Incite Effect. If you attack your own zone, then you are affected normally by the attack. Even if you lack the At Range upgrade, targets defend against your zone attacks as though you had it.
Incite Explosive Effect [+1]. (Requires Incite Mass Effect) You may not make non-zone-wide attacks with Incite Effect.
Incite Selective Effect [-1]. (Requires Incite Mass Effect) You do not harm yourself when attacking your own zone.
Incite Persistent Effect [-1]. (Requires Incite Mass Effect) When attacking a zone with Incite Effect, you may take an accuracy penalty (before rolling) in order to extend the duration of the attack. For each point of accuracy sacrificed this way, the attack is reapplied at the beginning of another exchange. You may take actions to extend this effect as though you were an evoker extending an evocation.
Incite Additional Effect [-1]. You may select another effect to create with this Power. You may also select another skill to use that effect with. If the other upgrades that you have are appropriate for the new effect, you may use them with it. You may also upgrade the new effect separately.

SUPERNATURAL MARTIAL ARTS [-1]
Description: You can improve your performance in combat by channelling magical energy.
Skills Affected: Combat skills.
Effects:
Special Techniques. You know three techniques from the following list. You may enhance your physical attacks and defences with them by taking a mental stress hit with a value equal to the combined cost of the techniques that you're using. You must declare technique use before rolling. You may only use any given technique once per roll. At the GM's discretion, techniques beyond the ones presented here might exist.

• Enhanced Accuracy (1 stress): Add 1 to a physical attack roll.
• Enhanced Defence (1 stress): Add 1 to a physical defence roll.
• Enhanced Damage (1 stress): The enhanced attack inflicts 2 additional stress.
• Enhanced Resilience (1 stress): Add 2 to your armour against a single physical attack.
• Holy Strike (2 stress): The enhanced attack is Holy, and satisfies all appropriate Catches.
• Distant Strike (2 stress): Add 3 zones to the range of the enhanced attack.
• Whirlwind Attack (3 stress): You may apply your attack to an entire zone within its range, without risk of hitting yourself.
• Piercing Attack (3 stress): The enhanced attack ignores all armour.
• Flurry (4 stress): Replace the enhanced attack with up to four attacks. Each of those attacks suffers a penalty equal to the number of attacks made, but all of them benefit from whatever techniques enhanced the original enhanced attack.

More Techniques [-1]. You know three additional techniques. You may take this upgrade more than once, but you cannot take any technique more than once.

PROPHECY [-1]
Description: You can see the future, or at least determine its shape somehow.
Skills Affected: Lore.
Effects:
Divination. Add a Divination trapping to your Lore skill. Use that trapping for Assessments, Declarations, and knowledge rolls related to what will happen in the future.
Visions. The GM can cause you to have an infallibly-accurate vision of the future whenever he or she feels inclined.
I Saw That Coming. You may use your Lore skill for the Avoiding Surprise trapping of the Alertness skill.

PRECOGNITION [-2]
Description: You can predict the actions of your opponents in combat, making it very difficult to get the drop on you.
Skills Affected: Alertness, sometimes Lore.
Effects:
Always Prepared. Add two to your Alertness skill (or, if you have the Prophecy Power, your Lore skill) when using its Combat Initiative and Avoiding Surprise trappings.
Precognition. Whenever you are attacked, you may attempt to Assess the person attacking you with your Alertness skill. The person attacking you may defend with the skill that they're attacking you with. If you succeed, the GM should reveal either one of the target's Aspects or an Aspect that applies to their attack.
Application Of Prophecy. If you possess the Prophecy Power, you may use your Lore skill for the Precognition trapping of this Power and the Combat Initiative trapping of the Alertness skill.

[Tedronai]

I don't think that Flurry should be an effect that is available in this game.
If it's representing multiple attacks per target, it would be reasonably replaced with a simple bonus on the roll, already available in this power.
If it's representing attacks against multiple targets in a short time-span, it would be reasonably by spray attacks or by the zone-attack already included in this power.

Multiple-action powers are, in my experience, simply too difficult to balance effectively to be worth the gain.


Prophecy is listing 'knowledge rolls' as a separate entity from assessments and declarations, which isn't really accurate.

[Centarion]

On Supernatural Martial Arts:

I don't think flurry is necessary. I think it should be handled, as Tedronai said, by a spray attack against multiple enemies or by an increased bonus to the attack roll against one target. I would do this by allowing whirlwind to hit everything but you in a zone (at no penalty, am I interpreting this correctly?) for 3 stress, or make a spray attack for 1 stress. I would then replace Flurry with the ability to add (3 or 4) to your attack roll single target for 4 stress. I know this is intended as a rework for Sacred Guardian which you think is really op (I think it is minorly op, not even close to the level of spell casting for example), so you may want to tone down the big bonus to a roll, but this power already limits the amount of effects you have access to (you cant have +1 for 1 stress, +2 for 2 stress, ect. for both attack and defense).

Further, I would make it clear weather Piercing Attack ignores armor from toughness powers (it doesn't satisfy a catch, but it does ignore armor? Is the armor from toughness something you can pierce, maybe sometimes it is, but sometimes it may be themed as something that isn't armor). I don't know why this power only allows Holy Strike, what if a Demon Scion (some mercenary like Kincaid who was really good at martial arts) took this power and wanted to satisfy thematically appropriate catches? What happened to the 2 stress per attack to satisfy the catch on any supernatural entity from Sacred Guardian?

On Incite Effect:

I really like this. The mechanics seem good, and strong, but about on par with the version in the book (and not as op as Evocation with refinements for example). There are a few confusing points (or maybe clear points that I don't think make sense thematically) I would like to address.

First, on Physical/Mental Effect, I would make it clear that if you do not have at range the target *may* defend as though it were a fists attack (with the same wording on both, not different wording as it is now, formatting nitpick), or against the Incited Effect as normal (I think this is what is intended, and it should be IMO, but if it is not, fine). I would make it clear that when you use the power you roll the skill you chose, and then the target chooses to defend as if it was a fists attack (using weapons or fists or athletics as appropriate) or against the effect incited (using discipline or endurance or might as appropriate). 

I would also not restrict physical effects to only be defensible by endurance (or athletics with a 0 cost), sometimes the effect may be something you defend against with might, sometimes the target will be able to use dodging with something that isn't athletics. It entirely depends on the flavor of the effect incited, this could be something you choose when you pick the power, or it could be something that the target chooses when they defend (choice between dodge, or just take it and shrug it off with endurance, may be an option. In the case of grasping shadows the target may want to dodge, or fight them off with might). If the target chooses, it does make the physical version weaker than the mental version (because I cant really think of a mental thing that wouldn't be defended with discipline, excluding a stunt on the target to use conviction or something).

On the other hand you can use the physical version for a wide range of scene maneuvers like knocking over bookcases, or destroying cover, or lighting things on fire, or placing a Clinging Darkness aspect (in the case of shadows), whereas the mental version (without mass effect) doesn't make any sense for scene maneuvers (unless you theme your shadows as sapping mental energy or something, but that is kind of a stretch IMO). I may make this distinction explicit, allowing Incite Physical to make broader maneuvers but be defended by athletics or endurance (or might), where Incite Mental can only make maneuvers on a single targets but in return can only be defended by discipline. Further, Incite Mass would allow a physical effect to be zone wide, negating the ability to defend with athletics (can't dodge it when the shadows cover the whole zone), or allow a mental effect to place a scene or multi-target aspect (you make the whole area depressing).

This leads into the last things that were unclear to me, Incite Mass Effect says you may make spray and zone attacks does it allow you to make maneuvers against a zone or multiple targets (as you could with evocation)? Also, I assume making a zone attack comes with a penalty to the roll (-2?) but this is not clear (or it may not have a penalty, is that balanced?).

I also wanted to add my thanks for compiling these lists (they are very useful).

[Sanctaphrax]

Multiple-action powers are, in my experience, simply too difficult to balance effectively to be worth the gain.


Prophecy is listing 'knowledge rolls' as a separate entity from assessments and declarations, which isn't really accurate.

I'm well aware that Flurry is unnecessary and a lot of work, but I don't really care...I do this as a hobby, the work is part of the point.

(And of course, much of what I write is unnecessary and questionably useful. Doesn't bother me.)

I considered modelling it as a boosted spray attack where multiple elements of the spray can be aimed at one guy, but this seemed better.

Knowledge rolls may or may not be separate from Assessments and Declarations depending on interpretation. I'm trying to cover all possibilities here.

What do you think of Precognition?

...(I think it is minorly op, not even close to the level of spell casting for example)...

Not to be rude, but your opinion is wrong.

Sacred Guardian is the best physical combat Power in the game. It's also the best social combat Power, and a pretty good spellcasting Power. (It can boost an "attack or defense roll", which can be quite a few things.)

It provides enormous bonuses whenever you want them, and don't even get me started on the bit about the Catch.

Even if you implement the common-sense houserule of limiting it to physical attacks, it's still vastly better than True Aim. And True Aim is pretty darn good.

Meanwhile, spellcasting isn't clearly op. There is disagreement there...personally, I think its power level is roughly appropriate.

Further, I would make it clear weather Piercing Attack ignores armor from toughness powers (it doesn't satisfy a catch, but it does ignore armor?

It ignores Toughness armour. What led you to believe otherwise?

I don't know why this power only allows Holy Strike, what if a Demon Scion (some mercenary like Kincaid who was really good at martial arts) took this power and wanted to satisfy thematically appropriate catches?

The techniques presented here are not the only possible techniques. Others might exist. So Kincaid would likely use some technique that I haven't written.

What happened to the 2 stress per attack to satisfy the catch on any supernatural entity from Sacred Guardian?

It never existed, Sacred Guardian can only ignore the Toughness of "a spiritual creature". I don't know what that means and the effect was pretty BS anyway, so I removed it entirely.

On Incite Effect:

I really like this...

Thanks.

First, on Physical/Mental Effect, I would make it clear that if you do not have at range the target *may* defend as though it were a fists attack (with the same wording on both, not different wording as it is now, formatting nitpick), or against the Incited Effect as normal (I think this is what is intended, and it should be IMO, but if it is not, fine). I would make it clear that when you use the power you roll the skill you chose, and then the target chooses to defend as if it was a fists attack (using weapons or fists or athletics as appropriate) or against the effect incited (using discipline or endurance or might as appropriate).

That's what I tried to do. I guess I'll try again. 

I would also not restrict physical effects to only be defensible by endurance (or athletics with a

• cost), sometimes the effect may be something you defend against with might, sometimes the target will be able to use dodging with something that isn't athletics. It entirely depends on the flavor of the effect incited, this could be something you choose when you pick the power, or it could be something that the target chooses when they defend (choice between dodge, or just take it and shrug it off with endurance, may be an option. In the case of grasping shadows the target may want to dodge, or fight them off with might). If the target chooses, it does make the physical version weaker than the mental version (because I cant really think of a mental thing that wouldn't be defended with discipline, excluding a stunt on the target to use conviction or something).

No.

Here's why:

Taking a high Athletics and Endurance is what you do when you want to be hard to hurt. Letting attacks hit other skills basically says "screw you" to that investment.

Heck, even hitting Endurance is a bit sketchy. Athletics defence is usually higher, because of Speed Powers and the principles of optimization.

Plus, it gives an extra option to characters who could already hit Athletics just by pulling a gun.

If people could Incite Effect against Stealth or Craftsmanship or whatever, Incite Emotion would frequently hit a defence of 0. That's in no way fair.

Plus, you can defend against anything and everything by being somewhere else. And anything that Might would work for can be covered by Endurance, which is often based off of physical bulk.

On the other hand you can use the physical version for a wide range of scene maneuvers like knocking over bookcases, or destroying cover, or lighting things on fire, or placing a Clinging Darkness aspect (in the case of shadows), whereas the mental version (without mass effect) doesn't make any sense for scene maneuvers (unless you theme your shadows as sapping mental energy or something, but that is kind of a stretch IMO). I may make this distinction explicit, allowing Incite Physical to make broader maneuvers but be defended by athletics or endurance (or might), where Incite Mental can only make maneuvers on a single targets but in return can only be defended by discipline. Further, Incite Mass would allow a physical effect to be zone wide, negating the ability to defend with athletics (can't dodge it when the shadows cover the whole zone), or allow a mental effect to place a scene or multi-target aspect (you make the whole area depressing).

Incite Mental Effect can be used for scene maneuvers, subject to standard reasonableness tests. I don't see any problem with that...the scope of possible maneuvers is something that has to be worked out at the table.

Also, you can dodge a zone attack with Athletics. In fact, that's basically the only way to defend against a zone attack...you can't block an explosion, but you can get away from it.

This leads into the last things that were unclear to me, Incite Mass Effect says you may make spray and zone attacks does it allow you to make maneuvers against a zone or multiple targets (as you could with evocation)?

No.

(Unless by "against a zone" you mean against the zone itself rather than against the people in the zone.)

Frankly, I'm not sure Evocation can do that either. The rules are somewhat contradictory on that point.

Also, I assume making a zone attack comes with a penalty to the roll (-2?) but this is not clear (or it may not have a penalty, is that balanced?).

No penalty, for this or for Whirlwind Attack.

What made you think there was one?

I also wanted to add my thanks for compiling these lists (they are very useful).

You're very welcome.

[Tedronai]

I'm well aware that Flurry is unnecessary and a lot of work, but I don't really care...I do this as a hobby, the work is part of the point.

(And of course, much of what I write is unnecessary and questionably useful. Doesn't bother me.)

It's not just that it's difficult and unnecessary, but also that it's likely to be broken no matter what you do.  Rather like I suspect it is, now.

Knowledge rolls may or may not be separate from Assessments and Declarations depending on interpretation. I'm trying to cover all possibilities here.

What other means would a 'knowledge roll' have to interact with the game mechanics?

What do you think of Precognition?

It feels a bit weak for a 2-refresh power, but definitely more powerful than a 1-refresh power.
(I hope you weren't including the integral trapping-mover in the valuation.)

I think part of the problem is the unpredictability of the assessment, and thus the unpredictability of its usefulness (I mean, really, when that mook of a mugger jumps you on the street, it could get you 'bum leg' or 'just a bad apple' or anything in-between).  I suggest including some guiding principles as to the nature of the aspects revealed.  Such as that they should be reasonably expected to be useful within the scene in which they're revealed.

[Sanctaphrax]

It's not just that it's difficult and unnecessary, but also that it's likely to be broken no matter what you do.  Rather like I suspect it is, now.

Huh. And here I was trying to lowball its power.

Can you give me an example of how it could be broken?

Now, I can nerf this as much as I want by increasing the penalty. What penalty would you think appropriate?

What other means would a 'knowledge roll' have to interact with the game mechanics?

Um, none. But rolls don't all interact with the mechanics, some are means of altering the narrative.

If I lift a box, that doesn't necessarily create a LIFTED BOX aspect. Sometimes it just makes a box move.

Similarly, sometimes the GM might just tell you "the Catch is transgendered squidzilla ink" rather than giving you access to the Aspect VULNERABLE TO TRANSGENDERED SQUIDZILLA INK.

Or maybe he'll handle it through Aspects. Both approaches are valid.

It feels a bit weak for a 2-refresh power, but definitely more powerful than a 1-refresh power.
(I hope you weren't including the integral trapping-mover in the valuation.)

I think part of the problem is the unpredictability of the assessment, and thus the unpredictability of its usefulness (I mean, really, when that mook of a mugger jumps you on the street, it could get you 'bum leg' or 'just a bad apple' or anything in-between).  I suggest including some guiding principles as to the nature of the aspects revealed.  Such as that they should be reasonably expected to be useful within the scene in which they're revealed.

Good idea. I'll do that.

What do you mean by "the integral trapping-mover"?

[Centarion]

No.

Here's why:

Taking a high Athletics and Endurance is what you do when you want to be hard to hurt. Letting attacks hit other skills basically says "screw you" to that investment.

Heck, even hitting Endurance is a bit sketchy. Athletics defence is usually higher, because of Speed Powers and the principles of optimization.

Plus, it gives an extra option to characters who could already hit Athletics just by pulling a gun.

If people could Incite Effect against Stealth or Craftsmanship or whatever, Incite Emotion would frequently hit a defence of 0. That's in no way fair.

Plus, you can defend against anything and everything by being somewhere else. And anything that Might would work for can be covered by Endurance, which is often based off of physical bulk.

That was not the point of that section. Of course you could allow the person to pick what it hits when they pick up the power (but as you mentioned that is probably broken), the real gist was that you allow the opponent to choose the defense for physical powers. This allows you to differentiate physical and mental because physical is weaker in this are but better at maneuvers, and mental hits discipline (pretty much exclusively) but cant really do maneuvers on a scene. Anything might could work for is not covered by endurance, there are plenty of things strong people can do that tough people cannot. Like pushing or shoving things, for a quick example.

Incite Mental Effect can be used for scene maneuvers, subject to standard reasonableness tests. I don't see any problem with that...the scope of possible maneuvers is something that has to be worked out at the table.

Also, you can dodge a zone attack with Athletics. In fact, that's basically the only way to defend against a zone attack...you can't block an explosion, but you can get away from it.

How do you use Incite mental effect (without the Mass upgrade) to place an aspect on a zone? You cant physically effect anything, you cant change the mood in the zone (that is what Incite Mass does), you can only effect one thing at a time, and the thing must have a mind, thus you can only maneuver against one character (I mean it could make scene maneuvers subject to reasonableness tests, but there isn't anything reasonable to do IMO). With incite physical effect you can start stuff on fire, knock over bookcases, rupture water pipes ect. depending on your power, all targeting one thing, but effecting at least a zone.

The reason I proposed allowing the target to narrate how they are defending against physical (aside form the fact that i feel this is how it should always work), is so that while physical has the advantage in the area of maneuvers, mental has the edge in available defenses (the target could narrate their mental defense too, I just cant think of anything I would allow besides discipline without a stunt).

I don't think it is reasonable to dodge a zone attack with athletics (at least not without justifying it using a scene/zone aspect) because mechanically when you defend, you end up in the same zone. If I caused an explosion in your zone, moving around in the zone is not going to save you. The explosion has many ways to kill you including heat, shock wave, shrapnel, and oxygen deprivation. You may be able to justify dodging shrapnel, but probably not the others (unless you say you dodged behind cover or something, which would require a zone aspect like stacked crates). Without cover or something to hide behind, any defense against a zone wide explosion type attack has to center on how well you are able to shrug it off, which is endurance.

My read on sacred guardian was that you could spend mental stress (up to the length of your stress track), to gain a bonus on physical attacks (I know this is a narrow reading, but the power was intended for a temple dog, which only has the one way to attack), or on defense rolls (I would allow defense against physical attacks or obvious mental assaults, but probably not social attacks). You also have to evaluate it in the context of a temple dog where the mental stress is both a fuel for this power, and also for his Bark. Also, I think they messed up the refresh costs of Sacred Guardian and The Bark.  The bark just adds a trapping to intimidate to block mind effecting, and allows another trapping (strait scaring things off) to effect spirits, along with the ability to spend stress to increase range, this is barely more than a stunt, and should probably cost 1. On the other hand Sacred Guardian gives you a +4, +3, +2, and +1 every fight (potentially a second +4 in place of the +2 if you want to take your mild consequence), this is clearly better than a +1.

I still don't think it is close to as overpowered as spell casting. At lowish levels of refresh (around 9-10, which is lowish for a wizard at least) Refinement is broken as crap. There is no other power in the game that allows you a +2 bonus to rolls for 1 refresh, which is trivial if you use refinement on control to push a spec up to 2 and a big focus item. You can do this no only for your primary attack, but also for all other skills together through thaumaturgy (which you then use as a ritual to simulate any non-combat skill, I am sure you know all this). There is also the problem of just drawing a huge amount of power, taking all your mental and physical stress (to draw it and take as backlash) and then spending all the fate points you got with compels all session to defeat the bad guy (say you have offensive control +2 and a +2 focus, and superb disc, then you spend 3 fate points, so you have a control roll around 16, then you have a +2 power focus and +1 spec, and 5 conviction, so you pull 8 shifts for free, and then take a 8 stress hit, taking your 2 mild consequences so you have 16 shifts of power. Note this is trivial with your 4 focus item slots and your free spec along with 1 refinement, now you get to make a weapon 16 attack at a 16 roll for basically free, what is going to come close, even with liberal fatepoints to not taking huge consequences right off the bat?) 

Anyway, I agree with you on everything else.

[Sanctaphrax]

That was not the point of that section. Of course you could allow the person to pick what it hits when they pick up the power (but as you mentioned that is probably broken), the real gist was that you allow the opponent to choose the defense for physical powers. This allows you to differentiate physical and mental because physical is weaker in this are but better at maneuvers, and mental hits discipline (pretty much exclusively) but cant really do maneuvers on a scene. Anything might could work for is not covered by endurance, there are plenty of things strong people can do that tough people cannot. Like pushing or shoving things, for a quick example.

Oh, I see.

That won't work either, I'm afraid.

You see, mental stress is much better than physical stress. It completely bypasses Toughness and mundane armour, making it very very hard to resist.

And on top of that, mental effects are not worse at maneuvers. I'll explain why after the next quote.

How do you use Incite mental effect (without the Mass upgrade) to place an aspect on a zone? You cant physically effect anything, you cant change the mood in the zone (that is what Incite Mass does), you can only effect one thing at a time, and the thing must have a mind, thus you can only maneuver against one character (I mean it could make scene maneuvers subject to reasonableness tests, but there isn't anything reasonable to do IMO). With incite physical effect you can start stuff on fire, knock over bookcases, rupture water pipes ect. depending on your power, all targeting one thing, but effecting at least a zone.

Tap five people on the shoulders with Incite Rage, create a riot. Blast a baby with Incite Fear, fill the scene with crying. And so on.

Or maybe just knock over bookcases, etc. You can totally do that with Incite Mental Effect, if you narrate it as a tentacle of solidified insanity that you can extrude from your mouth.

Basically, the difficulties you're having with justifying big maneuvers are narrative and not mechanical. If they pose an issue for some reason (can't think of one, but I'm sure there's some possibility), then that's probably a Compel to narrow down your range of possible actions.

I don't think it is reasonable to dodge a zone attack with athletics (at least not without justifying it using a scene/zone aspect) because mechanically when you defend, you end up in the same zone. If I caused an explosion in your zone, moving around in the zone is not going to save you. The explosion has many ways to kill you including heat, shock wave, shrapnel, and oxygen deprivation. You may be able to justify dodging shrapnel, but probably not the others (unless you say you dodged behind cover or something, which would require a zone aspect like stacked crates). Without cover or something to hide behind, any defense against a zone wide explosion type attack has to center on how well you are able to shrug it off, which is endurance.

Actually, no. You can dodge behind a crate without an aspect. Just say you dodge behind a crate.

Plus, you could dodge out of the zone and back in.

Or you could move to a part of the zone that the explosion does not effect.

Or perhaps you just curl up into the fetal position very quickly, then tough it out Endurance-style with an Athletics touch.

I think that the issue you're having here is that you're conflating narrative with mechanics. Narratively, a zone attack doesn't spread to the edge of the zone and then stop. It's a lot messier than that, and FATE is very flexible when it comes to narration.

(On a related note, consider this: which is more plausible, getting away from a grenade or toughing out its explosion?)

If you're not convinced, check out the skill descriptions. Endurance is specifically said to be almost never rolled. Athletics, meanwhile, has no relevant restrictions on its dodging trapping.

I still don't think it is close to as overpowered as spell casting. At lowish levels of refresh (around 9-10, which is lowish for a wizard at least) Refinement is broken as crap. There is no other power in the game that allows you a +2 bonus to rolls for 1 refresh, which is trivial if you use refinement on control to push a spec up to 2 and a big focus item. You can do this no only for your primary attack, but also for all other skills together through thaumaturgy (which you then use as a ritual to simulate any non-combat skill, I am sure you know all this). There is also the problem of just drawing a huge amount of power, taking all your mental and physical stress (to draw it and take as backlash) and then spending all the fate points you got with compels all session to defeat the bad guy (say you have offensive control +2 and a +2 focus, and superb disc, then you spend 3 fate points, so you have a control roll around 16, then you have a +2 power focus and +1 spec, and 5 conviction, so you pull 8 shifts for free, and then take a 8 stress hit, taking your 2 mild consequences so you have 16 shifts of power. Note this is trivial with your 4 focus item slots and your free spec along with 1 refinement, now you get to make a weapon 16 attack at a 16 roll for basically free, what is going to come close, even with liberal fatepoints to not taking huge consequences right off the bat?)

 

This is an old argument, and normally I wouldn't bother rehashing it, except your example is so bad that it must be addressed.

Here are a few of its problems:

1. 3 Fate Points, two consequences, you last stress slots, and a casting roll that might get you Taken Out is not trivial at all. In fact, it's a massive investment and a sizable risk.

2. Your addition is slightly off. That's 15 control, not 16. And taking an 8 stress hit just gives you +7 power, not +8.

3. A character with Superb Athletics, an applicable dodge stunt, Sacred Guardian, and 3 FP can dodge that pretty reliably. For an investment of 2 Refresh, 1 apex skill, 3 FP, and 4 mental stress against your investment of ~5 Refresh, 2 apex skills, 3 FP, 4 physical stress, 4 mental stress, 2 mental consequences, and a substantial risk. So not only did they take no damage from your uber-attack, they did it comparatively cheaply.

Nobody denies that spellcasting is very strong. But it isn't clearly broken. Sacred Guardian is clearly broken.

[Tedronai]

Can you give me an example of how it could be broken?

Now, I can nerf this as much as I want by increasing the penalty. What penalty would you think appropriate?

It's a force multiplier useable against single targets.  More than that, it's ALSO useable against multiple targets.
Applying penalties only shifts the threshold a character must pass for it to become broken.
I don't really feel like doing the math on it right now, though.

Um, none. But rolls don't all interact with the mechanics, some are means of altering the narrative.

If all it alters is narrative, with no mechanical backing, why am I paying mechanical resources to gain access to it?

What do you mean by "the integral trapping-mover"?

The third clause the name of which I'm too lazy to look up which allows for the moving of the power's trappings if the user also possesses Prophecy.

[Sanctaphrax]

It's a force multiplier useable against single targets.  More than that, it's ALSO useable against multiple targets.
Applying penalties only shifts the threshold a character must pass for it to become broken.
I don't really feel like doing the math on it right now, though.

Here, let me explain the rudiments of the math. If you would fill in someone's Xth stress box with an attack, you can instead fill in their (X-2)th and (X-1)th stress boxes at the cost of reducing your hit chance. Launching a third attack lets you fill in the (X-3)th as well, and so on. (Assuming average rolls.)

This can be handy, but honestly I think I'd prefer +1 to hit most of the time.

I should probably test this...anyone interested in a test fight?

If all it alters is narrative, with no mechanical backing, why am I paying mechanical resources to gain access to it?

Because the narrative control that it offers is a concrete advantage. Knowing a Catch is a big deal. As is knowing whether someone intends to kill you. That enables you to behave more intelligently.

The third clause the name of which I'm too lazy to look up which allows for the moving of the power's trappings if the user also possesses Prophecy.

Oh, that. Yeah, that's not a significant part of the cost.

[Sanctaphrax]

More changes. Cleaned up the wording on Incite Effect a bit, clarified a couple of techniques, and implemented Tedronai's Precognition suggestion.

Also, I replaced the Holy Strike technique with an anti-ghost technique. Seemed more fitting.

I'm considering making Precognition a non-opposed roll, to make it quicker in play.

Still agonizing over Incite Effect range.

Thoughts?

INCITE EFFECT [-1]
Description: You can do a thing. A special thing, that cannot be done by most people. Maybe you can control clouds of smoke, maybe you can inflict fear by shouting. Or maybe you can summon the aid of two thousand invisible squirrels. Whatever.
Skills Affected: Any.
Effects:
Incite Effect. Pick a type of effect and a skill that's related to that type of effect. You can use that skill plus two to perform maneuvers and blocks related to that type of effect against anything you can touch. At the GM's discretion, this may also enable Declarations.
At Range [-1]. You may use Incite Effect at a range of one zone.
At Long Range [-1]. (Requires At Range) You may use Incite Effect on anything within your line of sight.
Incite Physical Effect [-1]. You may use Incite Effect to perform attacks that inflict physical stress. These attacks have a weapon rating of 2. They use the same skill as your maneuvers and blocks, but without the +2 bonus. If you have the At Range upgrade, then targets must use their Endurance to defend against these attacks. If you do not have the At Range upgrade, then targets may use whatever skill they would use against ordinary Fists attacks instead.
Incite Avoidable Physical Effect [-0]. (Requires Incite Physical Effect At Range) The targets of your Incite Physical Effect attacks defend with Athletics.
Incite Mental Effect [-1]. You may use Incite Effect to perform attacks that inflict mental stress. These attacks have a weapon rating of 2. They use the same skill as your maneuvers and blocks, but without the +2 bonus. If you have the At Range upgrade, then targets must use their Discipline to defend against these attacks. If you do not have the At Range upgrade, then targets may use whatever skill they would use against ordinary Fists attacks instead.
Incite Potent Effect [-1]. (Requires Incite Physical Effect or Incite Mental Effect) Attacks that you make with Incite Effect are weapon 4.
Incite Protective Effect [-1]. You may use your the skill that you use for Incite Effect to defend against physical attacks.
Incite Restrictive Effect [-1]. (Requires Incite Physical Effect or Incite Mental Effect) You may use Incite Effect to grapple targets within the range of this Power, using the skill that you use for Incite Effect. Grappling with a physical effect inflicts physical stress, while grappling with a mental effect inflicts mental stress.
Incite Mass Effect [-1]. (Requires Incite Physical Effect or Incite Mental Effect) You may make spray attacks and zone-wide attacks with Incite Effect. If you attack your own zone, then you are affected normally by the attack. Even if you lack the At Range upgrade, targets defend against your zone attacks as though you had it. This upgrade does not affect your ability to maneuver, and no penalty is incurred when attacking a zone with it.
Incite Explosive Effect [+1]. (Requires Incite Mass Effect) You may not make non-zone-wide attacks with Incite Effect.
Incite Selective Effect [-1]. (Requires Incite Mass Effect) You do not harm yourself when attacking your own zone.
Incite Persistent Effect [-1]. (Requires Incite Mass Effect) When attacking a zone with Incite Effect, you may take an accuracy penalty (before rolling) in order to extend the duration of the attack. For each point of accuracy sacrificed this way, the attack is reapplied at the beginning of another exchange. You may take actions to extend this effect as though you were an evoker extending an evocation.
Incite Additional Effect [-1]. You may select another effect to create with this Power. You may also select another skill to use that effect with. If the other upgrades that you have are appropriate for the new effect, you may use them with it. You may also upgrade the new effect separately.

SUPERNATURAL MARTIAL ARTS [-1]
Description: You can improve your performance in combat by channelling magical energy.
Skills Affected: Combat skills.
Effects:
Special Techniques. You know three techniques from the following list. You may enhance your physical attacks and defences with them by taking a mental stress hit with a value equal to the combined cost of the techniques that you're using. You must declare technique use before rolling. You may only use any given technique once per roll. At the GM's discretion, techniques beyond the ones presented here might exist. These techniques may not enhance spells or non-physical attacks.

• Enhanced Accuracy (1 stress): Add 1 to the enhanced attack roll.
• Enhanced Defence (1 stress): Add 1 to the enhanced defence roll.
• Enhanced Damage (1 stress): The enhanced attack inflicts 2 additional stress.
• Enhanced Resilience (1 stress): Add 2 to your armour against a single physical attack.
• Spectral Strike (2 stress): The enhanced attack interacts with spirits and other immaterial things as though they were solid.
• Distant Strike (2 stress): Add 3 zones to the range of the enhanced attack.
• Whirlwind Attack (3 stress): You may apply your attack to an entire zone within its range, without a penalty or a risk of hitting yourself.
• Piercing Attack (3 stress): The enhanced attack ignores all armour, regardless of the source of that armour.
• Flurry (4 stress): Replace the enhanced attack with up to four attacks. Each of those attacks suffers a penalty equal to the number of attacks made, but all of them benefit from whatever techniques enhanced the original enhanced attack.

More Techniques [-1]. You know three additional techniques. You may take this upgrade more than once, but you cannot take any technique more than once.

PROPHECY [-1]
Description: You can see the future, or at least determine its shape somehow.
Skills Affected: Lore.
Effects:
Divination. Add a Divination trapping to your Lore skill. Use that trapping for Assessments, Declarations, and knowledge rolls related to what will happen in the future.
Visions. The GM can cause you to have an infallibly-accurate vision of the future whenever he or she feels inclined.
I Saw That Coming. You may use your Lore skill for the Avoiding Surprise trapping of the Alertness skill.

PRECOGNITION [-2]
Description: You can predict the actions of your opponents in combat, making it very difficult to get the drop on you.
Skills Affected: Alertness, sometimes Lore.
Effects:
Always Prepared. Add two to your Alertness skill (or, if you have the Prophecy Power, your Lore skill) when using its Combat Initiative and Avoiding Surprise trappings.
Precognition. Whenever you are attacked, you may attempt to Assess the person attacking you with your Alertness skill. The person attacking you may defend with the skill that they're attacking you with. If you succeed, the GM should reveal either one of the target's Aspects or an Aspect that applies to their attack. Aspects revealed this way should generally be useful in the scene that they are revealed in, and they can often be tagged to increase defence rolls against the attacks that revealed them.
Application Of Prophecy. If you possess the Prophecy Power, you may use your Lore skill for the Precognition trapping of this Power and the Combat Initiative trapping of the Alertness skill.