Crafting Poison

[ways and means]

Given that magic crafting system, making magical poison or sedative would probably come under the potion rule set. My interpretation of magical posion is that instead of the weapons skill of the poisoner versus the endurance of the target each turn, it would probably run the potions damage as the shift strength of the potion each turn versus the targets endurance. Do people think this interpretation is too broken given that a good crafter who fate pointed the poison could get an effective poison rating of 12 or 14 very easily which would kill of most pc and npc in a couple of rounds. 

[Papa Gruff]

I'd probably not use the poisoned rules form the claws power for poisoned weapons.

First of all I'd make it a craftsmanship, recourses or weapons declare if someone would like to use poisoned weaponry. If the declare goes through the weapon is poisoned. That'd allow for consequence aspects that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

An attack with a poisoned knife that dealt a minor consequence could place a "Poisoned" Aspect on the Target that could be tagged or compelled by the player or that I'd compel myself as a GM. That way it wouldn't be OP and it's simpler then coming up with potions rules that are adapted to poison making. I find this elegant.

A poison effect that deals stress bot doesn't cost refresh is a bit much in my opinion. An other way to go is to design a Stunt that leads to the venomous claws rules. I don't know. This seems to be an other gray area in the books.

[Papa Gruff]

Ups ... I think I have misread the OP.

Sorry for that. The rules of venomous claws require a maneuver to set the "POISONED" aspect on the target. Each turn the Fists Skill of the Attacker is run against the endurance of the target. Stress from this gets applied as usual.

A potion like you described (12 to 14 power) is definitely broken if the venomous claws rules are used and the endurance roll has to go against the 12 to 14.

[ways and means]

I agree with you a potion of 12 - 14 strength is a bit game breaking but I also think that an above Legendary Strength Poison should kill an enemy really quickly (think hydra's venom or cordite, ok perhaps not cordite) and I also think you should be able to magical craft poison probably as a potion (It being one of the standard uses of potions in fiction). 

[Papa Gruff]

ok ... you are right ... you totally can make a poison potion. that should be easy more or less.

How do you suppose it would be applied? would it be ingested? would it be applied to a weapon as a contact or wound poison?

Have I understood correctly? Would it be a sedative and not a deadly venom?

[ways and means]

The idea for this came from the 100 year sleep potion from another campaign (tecnically a sedative but a 100 years sleep is pretty much death), it could be applied by poisioning the punch/food etc or via a dart, a needle or a weapon, basicly anything that get the poison into the blood stream. I suppose you might be right that the venomous mechanic shouldn't be used for this but I wonder how else you would stat poisons on that kind of level.

[Tedronai]

depending on the intended effects of the poison, you could stat it as a grapple (wracking pain that incapacitates the target in the short term, while the poison tears through the victim's system in a more lasting manner, for instance)

[Haru]

For a stress inducing Poison Potion, I would simply apply shifts to either power or duration, where 1 shift equals 1 exchange or power. A 12 shift potion could then be a poison 6 attack for 6 exchanges (which would give you the most shifts of damage). If you want a faster potion, it is not going to last that long, and if you want to have a poison that stays longer, it is going to be weaker, so it should balance out rather fine.

You might even look at another way to distribute the shifts, maybe a poison does 1 shift of stress in the first exchange, then 2, then 3, and so forth, slowly building up it's deadliness. Though you should not exceed the total stress it would be able to inflict if it behaved linear. And it might be worth 2 shifts to change it's behaviour like that.

Poisons that apply an effect like "sleeping" would best be build as a maneuver with the duration increased by the standard time table.

Usually, potions are ingested, so I would have that as a baseline means of delivery. If you want to do it another way, I would probably require 2 shifts for it to be able to be delivered for example through a weapon or as a gas or any other way you might think of.

Remember though, that killing with a magical poison is still killing with magic, thus violating the first law.

[ways and means]

For a stress inducing Poison Potion, I would simply apply shifts to either power or duration, where 1 shift equals 1 exchange or power. A 12 shift potion could then be a poison 6 attack for 6 exchanges (which would give you the most shifts of damage). If you want a faster potion, it is not going to last that long, and if you want to have a poison that stays longer, it is going to be weaker, so it should balance out rather fine.

You might even look at another way to distribute the shifts, maybe a poison does 1 shift of stress in the first exchange, then 2, then 3, and so forth, slowly building up it's deadliness. Though you should not exceed the total stress it would be able to inflict if it behaved linear. And it might be worth 2 shifts to change it's behaviour like that.

Poisons that apply an effect like "sleeping" would best be build as a maneuver with the duration increased by the standard time table.

Usually, potions are ingested, so I would have that as a baseline means of delivery. If you want to do it another way, I would probably require 2 shifts for it to be able to be delivered for example through a weapon or as a gas or any other way you might think of.

Remember though, that killing with a magical poison is still killing with magic, thus violating the first law.

I didn't think about the duration issue, most potions work with odd types of duration from seconds in the case of the escape potion to possibly multiple scenes when dealing with stuff like super-coffee but adding in shifts for duration certainly would balance the poison. I probably wouldn't add a modifer for injections etc (means of consumption) because it just seems like fluff to me.  I probably would count a sedative potions as the the same as a posion potion with the difference that one has the taken out result dead and the other has the taken out result a sleep (being a sleep does take you out of the fight).

[Richard_Chilton]

My thoughts on making that 100 year sleeping potion:
1) work out the spell make someone sleep that way.  I'm thinking that it might require a total takeout (all stress boxes + all consequences + 4 for the roll) because the closest thing to suspended animation that I can think of is to change someone's shape.  Leave the appearance alone but alter the inside so that it's in a state of suspended animation.

2) workout the default duration for that spell

3) boost that duration up past the mortal lifetime bit because a hundred years is above the average life expectancy.

4) Tag a huge amount of aspects and spend lots of FATE chips while delivering that potion.  I haven't worked out the complexity of the spell but the duration alone will put it past (Lore x 2) which is the max complexity for an enchanted item.  Luckily potions can be boosted when they are activated - otherwise "using the potion" would have to be a step of a long ritual that needs a ridiculous number of successes.

At least that's my take on it - hope it helps.

Richard

[Tedronai]

2) workout the default duration for that spell

3) boost that duration up past the mortal lifetime bit because a hundred years is above the average life expectancy.

What's the 'default duration' of a Taken Out result?

[Haru]

I probably wouldn't add a modifer for injections etc (means of consumption) because it just seems like fluff to me.

If you make a poison to be used on a weapon, it would have to be more complex, because you can probably not get as much of it delivered as if the target ingests it. Plus, my idea was to make a poison more volatile in social conflict than in physical combat. I don't really like supercharging weapons and if you have to be sneaky to deliver a poison to another it is way more interesting than just hitting him with a knife. If you start with a 12 shift potion, you get a total of 36 shifts of stress if digested, but only 25 shifts any other way. That is still a whole lot, but 9 shifts might be worth considering. But as always with this sort of thing: YMMW

I probably would count a sedative potions as the the same as a posion potion with the difference that one has the taken out result dead and the other has the taken out result a sleep (being a sleep does take you out of the fight).

That's a good point, I haven't thought about it like that, but it does make a lot of sense.

Another way to go about a poison could be to treat it as a consequential contest, simply aiming at one of the consequence slots. Would make it a lot simpler, shifts would be consequence +4 for an always successful poison, and it would only need 1 roll of the dice.  Deadly poisons would not be possible this way(except if you aim for all consequences at once), so this might only be appropriate for poisons that are designed to put a permanent(ish) negative aspect on the target.

[Belial666]

Draught of Living Death
Potion, biomancy/chronomancy 17-19 shifts
This powerful concoction will put whoever imbibes it into an enchanted sleep so deep it resembles death. The sleep is mostly permanent.
Effect: 5-7 shift maneuver vs the target's endurance to apply sticky "torpor" aspect, 12 shifts to make it last one mortal lifetime. Force-feeding requires succesful grappling or incapacitation. Tricking requires successful deceit.
Crafting Requirements: Lore of Superb, significant crafting ability (7-9 shifts). Lore declaration for the right poisonous herbs as potion materials (+2). Discipline declaration to go through the brewing with perfect attention to detail (+2). Scholarship (or contacts) declaration to find the right incantation in a major library (+2). Invoke magic-related high concept or potions-related aspect (+2). Enchanted item needs to be willingly (or forcibly) consumed by the enemy rather than being usable by the crafter (+2).
Notes: The spell works on anyone with up to Fantastic endurance defense. This is an ongoing effect but it is fairly hard to dispel and high impossible to remove via skill rolls, given its 17-19 shifts of power. Certain conditions like thresholds and running water could weaken the spell, making it last only a few months if the victim is continiously under them for the duration as well as make it easier to dispel.


A nice red apple
Potion, biomancy/chronomancy 26 shifts
This magically prepared red apple is actually a potionlike item disguised as an apple - or an apple enchanted with the same magic as a potion. You can either force someone to bite into the apple or trick them into eating it themselves. Once they do, the magic inside puts them into a sleep of exhaustion then slows down their bodily functions by many thousand times; their heart beats twice per day, they take a breath every week and a night's sleep lasts a hundred years. Catching them unaware in the second option is preferable to force-feeding as the magic works better if the victim is unaware and willingly (if unwittingly) take it themselves.
Effect: Force-feeding requires succesful grappling or incapacitation. Tricking requires successful deceit. In either case, 26-shift attack vs endurance; consider surprise rules for tricking. A takeout results in this enforced torpor; consequences are sleep/exhaustion related.
Crafting Requirements: Lore of Fantastic, maxed crafting item power (12 shifts). Resources (or survival) declaration to buy or find perfect apple (+2). Lore declaration for the right poisonous herbs as potion materials (+2). Conviction declaration to believe absolutely that putting someone into torpor is acceptable (+2). Scholarship (or contacts) declaration to find the right incantation in a major library (+2). Invoke high concept of "Evil Enchantress" (+2). Enchanted item needs to be willingly (or forcibly) consumed by the enemy rather than being usable by the crafter (+2). In addition to ways of reversing magic, a kiss from a pure heart or true lover will work (+2).
Notes: This is a one-time take-out effect. Weakening the magic does not apply. You can't roll skills to remove the spell any more than you can roll to remove death or being turned to stone and a general dispelling would not work. A spell that reverses effects rather than trying to dispel ongoing magic works. A condition that takes precedence over mere torpor such as death or flesh-to-stone will also break the spell but might not make the victim happier. However, as this is a take-out result, you need to actually take-out the victim; sufficiently powerful victims could possibly take enough consequences to not be taken out.

[Tedronai]

Shifts diverted to duration do not contribute to the difficulty to remove a spell maneuver.

[Belial666]

Technically, yes. However, the target is in torpor and cannot make maneuvers anyway. And this is a chronomancy effect. You can't justify skill maneuvers to affect the flow of time any more than you could use skills to apply the aspect "total darkness" in an open lot in midday or "parted waters" on a river. Magic can apply maneuvers in situations skills cannot because of the justification limits of skills.