How do you run glamours?

[Silverblaze]

I have not had minor or major glamours in any of my campaigns yet.  How do you all run them?

I find the fact that the RAW says regardless of roll, one cannot pierce a glamour veil worrisome.. to say the least.

Plus, since it says "a moment of conentration" in the raw, does that mean that as a supplemental action, a PC or NPC can attack, but simultaneously roll deceit or discipline to make the attack look like it's coming from somewhere else, functioning as an ambush?

It seems to me that this is one of the most OP powers in the RAW.

Our simple fix (to the part whre the veil may not be piereced, only percieved) was : the higher the roll to notice/break the glamour the more completely it was broken.  Tie: "something is wrong" +1 the "wrong" thing is alive and over there +2 it seems to be humanoid in shape (assuming it was humanoid) +3 outline and general description +4 missing only minor details +5 veil broken completely the glamour is piereced.

[BumblingBear]

Our simple fix (to the part whre the veil may not be piereced, only percieved) was : the higher the roll to notice/break the glamour the more completely it was broken.  Tie: "something is wrong" +1 the "wrong" thing is alive and over there +2 it seems to be humanoid in shape (assuming it was humanoid) +3 outline and general description +4 missing only minor details +5 veil broken completely the glamour is piereced.

This sounds interesting too.

As long as the veil is noticed, I would not allow an ambush to happen, but if it is not "pierced" all they way, I would probably give anyone attacking anything in the veil an attack penalty.

Wizard veils are completely broken if someone notices them, no?

Also, I think that ALL veils only apply to being pierced by the one actually piercing them.  For instance, if someone is skulking, and one PC can see them, that does not mean that ALL the pcs can see them.  Even if the PC seeing them tells the group that someone is there, I think it's thematically appropriate that they won't automatically see them - especially with cloak of shadows or something in play.

[Richard_Chilton]

Saying that Glamour give veils so all veils are sort of like Glamour is wrong.

The results are comparable enough to use the same name for them both, but the mechanics and the source of the magic are both different.  A wizard's veil is a block and once pierced it's gone for the group while a Glamoured veil survives being pierced.

Richard

[BumblingBear]

Saying that Glamour give veils so all veils are sort of like Glamour is wrong.

The results are comparable enough to use the same name for them both, but the mechanics and the source of the magic are both different.  A wizard's veil is a block and once pierced it's gone for the group while a Glamoured veil survives being pierced.

Richard

That doesn't make any sense, though.

Can you cite references?

If a wizard is invisible, it doesn't make any sense that if some random kid on the street notices him/her, that the whole veil just drops.

What is far more sensible is that a wizard would stop feeding power to a veil if one of his or her enemies pierces it and can attack.  At that point, extending the veil is pointless.

[Tedronai]

That doesn't make any sense, though.

Can you cite references?

If a wizard is invisible, it doesn't make any sense that if some random kid on the street notices him/her, that the whole veil just drops.

What is far more sensible is that a wizard would stop feeding power to a veil if one of his or her enemies pierces it and can attack.  At that point, extending the veil is pointless.

YS252, but if that's how you want to fluff your explanation, go right ahead

[Richard_Chilton]

Veils are blocks.

When a block is broken, it goes away.

For example: John is holding a door shut on Mike, Steve, and Tim.  This is a form of block and if one of them break the block it's gone.  John could establish the block again on his next action, but once Mike forces his way through the door then Steve and Tim can go through as well.

For example: Tim the Enchanter has an air shield up, blocking incoming attacks.  Call it a block of 5 - Superb.  If Mike tries to punch Tim and gets a Great result on his fist roll than the block is still then when John attacks.  If John attacks and gets a Fantastic result then the block is down and Steve can attack without worrying about it.

So we have statement one:
The game treats a veil as a block on the senses.  See YS252 and YS295 for proof of this.

Statement two:
Once someone overcomes a block it goes down.  That's in the basic rules.

Which leads to statement three:
When someone breaks a normal, non-glamoured veil then that block is broken and the veil goes down.

Should the game treat veils as blocks? That's another debate, but in the rules as written they just another block and treated no differently than an air spell that blocks incoming attacks.


Richard

[Todjaeger]

Veils are blocks.

Veils can be blocks, but that doesn't automatically mean that all Veils are blocks.  See YS276 & YS286 for more information.

It would probably be best/most accurate to describe Evocation (Spirit)-based Veils as Blocks, as these require constant concentration to maintain.  Glamour and Thaumaturgy/Ritual-based Veils, which work somewhat differently and don't require constant concentration to maintain, would not count as blocks.

-Cheers

[Richard_Chilton]

I double checked those pages.  If I missed something then please point it out, but when I read those pages...

YS 276
"Veils are spirit evocations..." - meaning that this page is basically telling you how to turn what is normally an evocation into a longer term spell that doesn't require attention to maintain.

"The complexity of a large veil is equal to whatever difficulty the wizard wants others to beat in order to detect whatever’s behind the veil..." - which sounds like a block to me.

YS 286
"Disguises and illusions created by photomancy operate much like veils, save that they’re oriented on fooling someone rather than simply hiding from them. This is a block action against visual detection of the disguise, though if an illusion or disguised individual behaves in a way obviously out of character, the block isn’t going to be much help." - again, they are talking about blocks here.  That illusions (which they are explicitly calling blocks) operate "much like veils" - which to me is reenforcing the fact that a veil is a block.

Should veils be handled as blocks? That's another debate, but in the Rules as Written they are blocks.  A block that vanishes when someone beats it - unlike Glamours that stay after they beaten.

Glamour is fairy magic and in this regard is stronger than what mortals wizards do.

Richard

[BumblingBear]

Ok - the really simple solution to this problem is to give beings I don't want to be seen immediately by everyone if one person notices them the glamours power instead of just evocation.

I can call it something different, but that should suffice and negate a need to make a house rule on the subject.

[Raphael]

I havnt played DFRPG, but from the books the only way to pierce the glamours of the Fae is by Wizard's Sight, or a means that acted in a similar way like Harry's eye cream stuff that works the same way without the dangers of the Sight.

Thought that was the Gatekeepers formula?

[mithrandirthewhite]

Harry has a formula that does the same thing and doesnt smell

[toturi]

I'd say that a veil is pierced, it goes down in an appropriate manner.

Molly vs Gruffs at Carpenter home:
Molly's veil was pierced when the gruff noticed her prints in the snow. While the effect is that the veil has been pierced and it effectively goes down, the veil itself remains in place.

Molly vs Harry in the garage:
Harry throws something into the corner of the garage and Molly's veil was pierced. Now if Harry hadn't "pierced" Molly's veil by throwing something and chose to keep his deduction(maybe using Investigation?) that Molly was hidden under a veil to himself, I am not sure how to model the veil going down.

[Tedronai]

I'd say that a veil is pierced, it goes down in an appropriate manner.

Molly vs Gruffs at Carpenter home:
Molly's veil was pierced when the gruff noticed her prints in the snow. While the effect is that the veil has been pierced and it effectively goes down, the veil itself remains in place.

Molly vs Harry in the garage:
Harry throws something into the corner of the garage and Molly's veil was pierced. Now if Harry hadn't "pierced" Molly's veil by throwing something and chose to keep his deduction(maybe using Investigation?) that Molly was hidden under a veil to himself, I am not sure how to model the veil going down.

Which is why we call it fluff.

It should be specified that that only applies to evocation or thaumaturgy veils, though, because Glamour veils explicitly work differently, particularly in regards to being 'pierced'.