Undoing WCV effects... Lawbreaking?

[ryanshowseason2]

So heres the story, some valley girl npc was possesed by some strange magic that gave her the odd ability to make any kind of lipstick explosive, as in write on a surface with it and kablooey, touch a girls lips and boom etc. The WCV trying to be a good samaritan to this otherwise innocent woman made her fear lipstick to a deathly degree.

Later on her friends with lipstick on try to help her get up after falling, she flails being afraid of the lipstick her friend has on and boom her friends face explodes on contact with her hand.

The wizard now wants to undo the WCV's mental changes and take a different approach... Does this count as messing with her mind though and technically breaking a law? Wizards are usually allowed to dispel another wizard's effects on a person but what if they are mental in nature? Is it still just dispelling or is it now a lawbreaking affair?

[Set Abominae]

So heres the story, some valley girl npc was possesed by some strange magic that gave her the odd ability to make any kind of lipstick explosive, as in write on a surface with it and kablooey, touch a girls lips and boom etc. The WCV trying to be a good samaritan to this otherwise innocent woman made her fear lipstick to a deathly degree.

Later on her friends with lipstick on try to help her get up after falling, she flails being afraid of the lipstick her friend has on and boom her friends face explodes on contact with her hand.

The wizard now wants to undo the WCV's mental changes and take a different approach... Does this count as messing with her mind though and technically breaking a law? Wizards are usually allowed to dispel another wizard's effects on a person but what if they are mental in nature? Is it still just dispelling or is it now a lawbreaking affair?

I'd say it would be touch and go. Hardliners in the Council would probably state that any mucking about would be a violation. However, as I understand it, the spirit of the law was intended to protect mortals from the typical negative effects of mental compulsions. Controlling a person's mind to any degree is violating free will and usually psychologically damaging. However, from a more liberal member of the Council, you might have an argument that what's being done is removing an already present compulsion, and in essence healing the psyche, of a victim. I'd say the result of doing so would weigh in the determination. If things went badly and more harm ended up being done to the psyche than there was before, even the liberal minded would say the wizard's "done screwed up". And it seems that, more often than not, any mucking about in a person's head is potentially damaging.

We saw this in (spoilers ahoy)

(click to show/hide)

Turncoat with Molly mucking about in Luccio's head and nobody thinking that was a good idea because it was a violation and could do harm. Something Molly hasn't quite got through her own head.

[sinker]

One part that makes this really hard is that it's flat out against the third law to even look in there, so even if you aren't breaking the fourth law when you're in there how do you figure out how to do it while not looking?

[evileeyore]

One part that makes this really hard is that it's flat out against the third law to even look in there, so even if you aren't breaking the fourth law when you're in there how do you figure out how to do it while not looking?

You construct an elaborate thaum ritual that will reveal to the Sight the traces of energy still chaining her mind, then you undo those bindings.

[sinker]

That's assuming that there's a construct that's still there and working. What I would assume is that the WCV simply used the existing reactions and inclinations and then twisted them to create a fear response to a relatively innocuous thing like one would do if one was trying to do this kind of thing without magic. Were I GMing in this particular situation I would rule that the damage was already done and now there's no spell over her, but simply scarring in her mind.

[tymire]

You construct an elaborate thaum ritual

Isn't it awsome that this is the answer to everything?

Problem is any act of fixing still does the same thing to both of you as any act of messing around....

Just out of curiousity do you guys think that what Harry did for Murphy in Summer Knight with the ribbon on her finger vs the mind fog would work against vampire wammies?  Imo it probably should, though that might make it a bit too powerfull.  Hmmm it could just be treated mechanically as a block vs incite X.

[sinker]

Thematically I'd say that particular ritual was a block against mind fogs (I.E. tying a ribbon around your finger to remember), however I don't see any reason why someone couldn't design a ritual against supernatural emotion incitement.

[evileeyore]

That's assuming that there's a construct that's still there and working. What I would assume is that the WCV simply used the existing reactions and inclinations and then twisted them to create a fear response to a relatively innocuous thing like one would do if one was trying to do this kind of thing without magic. Were I GMing in this particular situation I would rule that the damage was already done and now there's no spell over her, but simply scarring in her mind.

The "twist" is the "construct", and yeah it would depend on how long ago the "fear whammy" was laid.


Granted... most of my characters would solve this with murder.  This chick is too dangerous and stupid to let live. (presumming there is no means with which to break or channel the Lipstick Explosive Magics)

[Taran]

I'd see that the WCV did an extreme consequence - "lipstick Phobia".  Mundane methods would work better.  Use Empathy,  a psycologist and cure her of her phobia.  On that note, the wizard could use Thaum. to boost his Empathy to help...can Thaum. give you the equivalent of the psychologist stunt???

[ryanshowseason2]

I'd see that the WCV did an extreme consequence - "lipstick Phobia".  Mundane methods would work better.  Use Empathy,  a psycologist and cure her of her phobia.  On that note, the wizard could use Thaum. to boost his Empathy to help...can Thaum. give you the equivalent of the psychologist stunt???

Ironically the WCV who did this is a psychologist in character and out of character.

Without the "lasting emotion" section of incite emotion however WCV powers are quite temporary, so I suppose one could imagine them as a construct that you could see in the sight and dispel...

Lasting emotion was used in this case however... Which I think in vanilla rules is still somewhat temporary. However the roll was epic enough +9 vs a 2 defense, that I allowed it to last for much longer.

I think the sight is probably enough of a deterrent if I explain that the complexity of what he'd be trying to deal with was phenomenal enough to overpower a normal wizard's mind... It would just be pretty lame for one character to be able to undo everything the other does because they don't like it. Complexity 9 in the sight on top of what the person normally looks like as well, then including the strange lipstick mojo.

BTW they decided to just cut her off from the lipstick mojo instead, it is now in a phylactery. The npc is still terrified of lipstick though.

[Bruce Coulson]

My 2 cents.

From the source material, it seems that magic, when applied to minds and emotions, is a sledgehammer or chainsaw.  Even with the best intentions and very fine control, it would be impossible for a wizard to successfully alter a mind magically without doing a lot of other damage.

Unless the wizard had a LOT of practice in doing so; which would leave a lot of mind-damaged victims in the process.

So, even though your wizard has very good intentions, and is trying to undo something rather than impose something...he/she's likely to do more harm than good.  Which is one of the reasons why the Fourth Law exists.  Not merely to prevent black magicians from creating a bunch of mind-controlled thralls; but to prevent a lot of tragedy at the hands of well-meaning wizards.

[Taran]

Ironically the WCV who did this is a psychologist in character and out of character.

Without the "lasting emotion" section of incite emotion however WCV powers are quite temporary, so I suppose one could imagine them as a construct that you could see in the sight and dispel...

Lasting emotion was used in this case however... Which I think in vanilla rules is still somewhat temporary. However the roll was epic enough +9 vs a 2 defense, that I allowed it to last for much longer.

I think the sight is probably enough of a deterrent if I explain that the complexity of what he'd be trying to deal with was phenomenal enough to overpower a normal wizard's mind... It would just be pretty lame for one character to be able to undo everything the other does because they don't like it. Complexity 9 in the sight on top of what the person normally looks like as well, then including the strange lipstick mojo.

BTW they decided to just cut her off from the lipstick mojo instead, it is now in a phylactery. The npc is still terrified of lipstick though.

Lasting emotion aside, you're causing mental consequences and Extreme Mental Consequences will replace an aspect including ones High Concept.  So, even though the "emotion" is not lasting, the consequence is.

[Set Abominae]

My 2 cents.

From the source material, it seems that magic, when applied to minds and emotions, is a sledgehammer or chainsaw.  Even with the best intentions and very fine control, it would be impossible for a wizard to successfully alter a mind magically without doing a lot of other damage.

Unless the wizard had a LOT of practice in doing so; which would leave a lot of mind-damaged victims in the process.

So, even though your wizard has very good intentions, and is trying to undo something rather than impose something...he/she's likely to do more harm than good.  Which is one of the reasons why the Fourth Law exists.  Not merely to prevent black magicians from creating a bunch of mind-controlled thralls; but to prevent a lot of tragedy at the hands of well-meaning wizards.

That's more or less what I was getting at. You even see this in vampire victims. The compulsion/addictions vamp attacks have on a mortal tends to destabilize their minds with increasing harm the more they are exposed.

The human mind is kind of like a house of cards. Just touching any of the cards can potentially cause the whole thing to cave in, much more so moving, adding, or removing cards.

That's my thinking anyway.

"You see, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push!"

[tymire]

You would be law breaking, regardless of intentions, as even looking into to someone has an effect on YOU.  The wardens might not come after you, but you should have to take lawbreaker for it as your minds touched and they influenced each other.  Really if you are going to try to fix them it would probably fall more on the 2nd law than the 4th....   Best solution of course is just sending them to a psychologist and hope for the best. 

You can project thoughts (as shown in the speaking stones) but that's as far as you can really go.....

[Haru]

Thought about this for a while, and I think there are 2 ways to do this, one invading, one not.

First, the invading one, is pretty easy: go in, redecorate as you like, get out. You might get the result you like or a drooling vegetable and a lawbreaker stunt.

The other one would be more like levelling the playing field. You don't overwrite the victims mind, you just give him enough power (or strip the enemy of enough power) to give him a chance to overcome the invasion by his own free will. Maybe a Ritual involving a soulgaze (or something like it), where the wizard can talk to the victim or give the fear a shape the victim can then attack.