+0 Catch for WCVs?

[sinker]

I'd say that true love is never temporary, but then again I'm a romantic that way.

[luminos]

I'd say that true love is never temporary, but then again I'm a romantic that way.

Well, whatever form of love actually effects WCV's is temporary, as shown by the fact that Harry lost his protection.

[sinker]

You're right... now I'm sad.

[evileeyore]

Well, whatever form of love actually effects WCV's is temporary, as shown by the fact that Harry lost his protection.

Harry lost his protection when he began an affair with another woman, one who wasn't his True Love.


It seems as though Butcher is aiming for more than just a feeling of love, but an ideal of it.  An ideal that must not be acted against, lest it be lost.

[BumblingBear]

That seems off to me. First, the players need to identify True Love which is going to be really hard. Then, they need to keep the blood liquid since dried blood loses almost all of its potency. Finally, there's a possibility that drawing the blood would taint it from "True Love" to "aggression".

All of those are going to be tough. It's not like finding a priest with True Faith where anyone in the industry could have one on speed dial. True Love is mutually sacrificial love iirc, which doesn't really lend itself to the supernatural community and is probably temporary.

A ritual would make it easy to find true love.

And why does the blood have to be liquid?

This isn't chemistry - it's magic.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

A ritual would make it easy to find true love.

Why? There's a lot of talk when reading the Thaumaturgy chapter about the caster needing to understand what they are doing. i.e., you can't heal someone without an understanding of anatomy. In the books, Harry can't make another handkerchief full of sunlight because he's just not happy enough.

If you don't understand True Love, (which would probably mean possessing it yourself, or having lost it in some mind boggling way that didn't turn your memories tragic) how in the world would you even know what to look for?

[tymire]

Bah don't you know anything?  Everyone knows that the correct answer to everything in this game is a powerfull enough rital.  It doesn't matter that pretty much every player wizard won't have a centries old spirit of knowledge they can consult for the payment of dime store novels.  It's completely obvious what is required and characters can come up with something that can work exactly as they want it to in a couple minutes......

Actually all you should have to do to find something with any true emotion is just use "the sight" and look around.  If it's a strong enough emotion to affect others it should be obvious while looking at it that way.

[Novembermike]

A ritual would make it easy to find true love.

How? Thaumaturgy is about taking something small and making the effect larger. You need a good connection to True Love in order to find it, and since Harry couldn't do this in the short story where this would have been useful I'd guess that just being effected by True Love doesn't cut it.

And why does the blood have to be liquid?

This isn't chemistry - it's magic.

Dry blood loses its potency. In Storm Front Harry needed to do a spell quickly because it wouldn't work with dry blood and Harry has shown concern about leaving wet blood but not dry blood.

[Tedronai]

A ritual would make it easy to find true love.

Sure.  Get yourself a connection to True Love (ie. a small sample of True Love), and you can find it elsewhere.  Of course, by then you already have what you're looking for, so...

And why does the blood have to be liquid?

This isn't chemistry - it's magic.

The blood of living things is liquid.  Once blood removed from a living thing dries, it loses most of its symbolic connection to the blood still possessed by the living.

[Richard_Chilton]

Has anyone besides me ever read the Casca:The Eternal Mercenary series? Its heyday was a couple of decades ago, but here's a link that explains the series:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casca_%28series%29

Basically it's a riff on the eternal jew story - Casca was a soldier at the crucifixion.  After using his spear to hurry things along, he is told: "Soldier, you are content with what you are. Then that you shall remain until we meet again. As I go now to my father, you must one day come to me."

Since then the character hasn't been able to die.  He's tried to die a couple of times (and others have tried to put him in the ground countless over the last 2000 years) but he remains ageless and undying.  In game terms he has recovery at the level of physical immunity.  No matter what happens (even if his brains are scattered on the ground) he will get better.  Of course in game terms such a thing would require a catch.

Since he's left countless records, and in the books there's an order that follows him around (they know that he'll be there for the second coming so follow him in the hopes that they can be there too), a wizard would be able research that catch.  Using the rules as written, the catch would be worth a -1.

How do you weaponise or exploit the catch of "can't die until he meets Jesus again"? That's your problem - using the rules as written that's as valid as a catch as "Sword of the Cross" or any other virtually impossible catch.

Which is a long example to stress a point: any catch that can't be exploited should be worth +0.  Otherwise taking out nationwide commercials to brag about how you will live until the second coming would be worth +2 as a catch.

Richard

[BumblingBear]

Rather than respond to everyone in turn, I will just respond to myself.

A ritual would make it easy to find true love.

Ok people - think outside the box.  What if a ritual were used to make an enchanted pair of glasses that can find true love?

Rituals are not just used for a thaumatergical effect - they're also used to make enchanted items.

As for feeling true love or whatnot, the symbolism necessary should be sufficient.

And why does the blood have to be liquid?

Liquid blood uses its potency for SPELLCASTING.  We've never seen a weaponized WC catch.  I don't see how it would matter if the catch (which is symbolic) is in liquid form or powder. 

Additionally, if you're a purist, you could just put a little bit of thinner in the "true love blood", put it in the head of a hollow point, and seal it with wax.

This isn't chemistry - it's magic.

Yup - like I said.

I think some folks make it more difficult than it has to be.

WCVs burn if they com in contact with their catch, and feel uncomfortable around it.  The obvious conclusion is that it should not be that hard to weaponize their catch.

Hell, if you were to cut up a well used Obama campaign poster (that was used almost as an idol of hope), put the small pieces in the heads of bullets and blast a Malvora, it should work as a catch.

[ways and means]

The way I see it a +0 catch is something that may come up once or twice in a persons entire life and/or something ludicrously rare (like the swords of the cross) if true love is both easy to find and easy to weaponise then it should be a +1 or +2 catch, but true love is hard to find say for example 1 case of love in every million is true and it is hard to weaponise then it would deserve the +0 catch.

[Becq]

Hell, if you were to cut up a well used Obama campaign poster (that was used almost as an idol of hope), put the small pieces in the heads of bullets and blast a Malvora, it should work as a catch.

Probably best not to bring politics into the conversation, as some wiseass might throw out a comment like "Keep in mind that the Malvora Catch is True Hope, not just Hope."

Good thing there are no Epic Wiseasses around in a forum relating to Harry Dresden... 

[BumblingBear]

Probably best not to bring politics into the conversation, as some wiseass might throw out a comment like "Keep in mind that the Malvora Catch is True Hope, not just Hope."

Good thing there are no Epic Wiseasses around in a forum relating to Harry Dresden... 

Yeah -didn't say what my political stance is... nor will I.

The way I see it a +0 catch is something that may come up once or twice in a persons entire life and/or something ludicrously rare (like the swords of the cross) if true love is both easy to find and easy to weaponise then it should be a +1 or +2 catch, but true love is hard to find say for example 1 case of love in every million is true and it is hard to weaponise then it would deserve the +0 catch.

Indeed.

I don't think satisfying a white court catch would be easily or super readily available, but it would not be impossible or only 3 in the world.

Harry Dresden is TERRIBLE at romance.  He dates worse than I did when I was 21 and totally clueless... yet he was able to find true love.

I don't think true love in the DV is common, but it's not exactly like looking for the "real killer" like OJ does either.

[Wolfwood2]

Some people seem to take it that the first step is to determine how hard the catch is to satisfy and then calculate the refresh return based on that.  I think that's the wrong way around.  First decide what you want the refresh return to be and that decides how hard the catch is to satisfy.  Decide the answer you want first, and then backtrack to that answer.

From the examples in the novels, I think you can easily justify +0 if that is your goal.  You could decide that true emotions are rare and they can't easily be weaponized "just because".  I mean, even when Harry had the true love protection in the book, it seemed to have little to do with more effectively hurting the WC vampires and much more to protecting him from their mental powers.  It was as if the Catch was being applied to their Incite Emotion ability rather than their toughness.  Sure his touch burned them a little, but even if he was a karate master, I'm not sure it would have made his punches more effective.

Easily justifiable as a +0 if that's what you want.