+0 Catch for WCVs?

[ways and means]

True though you can't say that about red court vampires.

[evileeyore]

True though you can't say that about red court vampires.

True but I'm pretty sure there Catch is +0 Knowledge, +2 Access.   

[Eunomiac]

Blast, I thought my victory was secure!  Also, I apologize in advance for my love of arguing.

On "Access:"

"White Court vampires suffer injury from True expressions of pure, selfless emotions .... This effect includes physical objects related to that emotional energy (some White Court vampires have suffered grave injury from handling a wedding ring or a rose exchanged between lovers)." (OW90-91)

Now, I'm aware of that "some" in there, and how narrow a field it might circumscribe.  But you would need to define "wedding ring" nearly out of existence to make it as rare as one of THE nails on THE Cross.  For a +0 to stick, only "one or two people in the entire world" even have access to the Catch.  Those are some very special wedding rings.

If it sounds like I'm being too literal on the "one or two people" thing, the comparative example in the book is a Sword of the Cross.  The next step down, a +1 Catch, is accessible only to "a very rare class of people" -- as rare as True Magic.  Moreover, the Raith Catch isn't limited to wedding rings:  There are roses in there too, and framed pictures, and jewelry, and just about anything else exchanged by people in True Love (a--wait for it--"very rare class of people"), as well as expressions of True Love, whatever that means. ("Lord Raith, never bring a gun to... A POETRY FIGHT!")

Extrapolating to fear/True Courage: Medals and many other relics of war would have to count for True Courage vs Malvora, or I just don't understand the concept of True Courage.  Raiding a museum or military family's suburban home, while ghoulish and deplorable and probably a lot of fun to roleplay, remains just a touch easier than pilfering Esperaccius from a Knight of the Cross.

As for weaponizing these trinkets, well, most of them are made of metal, and metallic things make excellent weapons.  Sure, I agree that melting a wedding ring into a bullet would probably kill the love (though it evidently doesn't hurt the hereditariness of silver), so just propel it with magic.  This isn't rocket science (...but it could be!)  Anyway, I grant that roses might take some doing (I wonder if True Love dissolves in liquid nitrogen...), but, where there's a wizard, there's a way.

On "Knowledge:"

The "which House are you" WCV stranger is hardly the norm.  It's not like the White Court hides who they are; they're nobility.  They're protected by the Accords.  The one's we've met go by their House surnames.  Sure, if you meet one in an alley in a strange city, you might not know.  But an established House of the White Court is not going to be incognito, because they're too busy being schemers and politickers nonpareil.  Just watch whether their dinner is sighing, screaming, seething or sobbing, and you're set.  This isn't necessarily easy, or it would be a +2.  But neither does it compare with requiring intimate knowledge of the unique circumstances and two-millenia backstory of an unprecedented, secretive and awesomely powerful semi-demigod.

[Tedronai]

Blast, I thought my victory was secure!  Also, I apologize in advance for my love of arguing.

On "Access:"

"White Court vampires suffer injury from True expressions of pure, selfless emotions .... This effect includes physical objects related to that emotional energy (some White Court vampires have suffered grave injury from handling a wedding ring or a rose exchanged between lovers)." (OW90-91)

Now, I'm aware of that "some" in there, and how narrow a field it might circumscribe.  But you would need to define "wedding ring" nearly out of existence to make it as rare as one of THE nails on THE Cross.  For a +0 to stick, only "one or two people in the entire world" even have access to the Catch.  Those are some very special wedding rings.

Because you can't just reach for A wedding ring, or A rose exchanged between lovers.  That couple has to not mere love each other, but that love must be 'True'.  The only established method of testing whether an emotion is 'True' is to test it against an appropriate WCV.  After which, if you're wrong, you'll be lucky to walk away with your mind intact.  And even if you DO manage to identify such a couple, there's no guarantee that their love will have an effect on their wedding rings, or a given rose, or any other token at all.  And, again there's no way to find out whether it HAS except to test it on a Raith.

Thus, since you can't know whether an item, or even a person, exemplifies or possess True Emotion, it takes 'personal knowledge' not of the WCV, but of the WEAPON as it relates to WCVs (+0 knowledge), and since you can't just go out and find such a weapon/person, you might as well not have access to it unless you ARE it (+0 accessibility).

[Sanctaphrax]

The catches in OW sometimes offer less refresh then the rules in YS indicate. White Court Vampires are not the only ones to whom this applies.

Links:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22280.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23446.0.html

[BumblingBear]

I have a WCV in my group.  I let him have 1 point of catch, and he also has 2 points of adjusted refresh.

You can do whatever you feel is appropriate.  I come to the forums to get other ideas or feedback from people who know the rules as well or better than I do, but at the end of the day, it's your game - you can do what you want.

[evileeyore]

The only established method of testing whether an emotion is 'True' is to test it against an appropriate WCV.  After which, if you're wrong, you'll be lucky to walk away with your mind intact.

I now have a sick idea for a WCV plot, where they use the younger members to sniff out mortals with True Love and quietly murder them.

[Silverblaze]

I now have a sick idea for a WCV plot, where they use the younger members to sniff out mortals with True Love and quietly murder them.

That's sick.  I think I like it.

[tymire]

Am I the only one that, when this discussion is brought up, thinks of the old anime "The Super Dimension Fortress Macross" and what the power of love/song has on the Zentradi?  Just find the entire idea humorous.  Hehe could even go as far as saying that WCV have a catch vs magical girls.   

Seriously though imo you should be able to tell if something has the power of X with a soul gaze or the sight.  This is especially true considering the fact that just being in love isn't enough, you need to "finalize" that commitment with a physical act, which based in the books trades pieces of your soul with the other person.  Now have no idea what would have to be done for an item to be impowered with that or how that would work with the other WCV with other emotions.

[ways and means]

Am I the only one that, when this discussion is brought up, thinks of the old anime "The Super Dimension Fortress Macross" and what the power of love/song has on the Zentradi?  Just find the entire idea humorous.  Hehe could even go as far as saying that WCV have a catch vs magical girls.  

Seriously though imo you should be able to tell if something has the power of X with a soul gaze or the sight.  This is especially true considering the fact that just being in love isn't enough, you need to "finalize" that commitment with a physical act, which based in the books trades pieces of your soul with the other person.  Now have no idea what would have to be done for an item to be impowered with that or how that would work with the other WCV with other emotions.

Power:
Listen to my Song [-6]
You can make a mental grapple at (peformance) on all people who can see here your song to stop doing whatever they are doing and start listening to your song. People can hear your song even when logic dictates people wouldn't be able to hear your song (in space and in the middle of a Mech Battle).

[Silverblaze]

Power:
Listen to my Song [-6]
You can make a mental grapple on all people who can hear your song to stop doing whatever they are doing and start listening to your song. This somehow works even when logic dictates people wouldn't be able to hear your song (in space and in the middle of a Mech Battle).

I like it. A Lot!  Few caveats though...  It may be too expensive and likely needs a bit more system.  How to resist (discipline?) if being struck breaks the hold.  Does it work like a block? 

[Novembermike]

I figure the main reason is how hard it is to weaponize the catch. They're only hurt by True Love if they try to feed so you can't just get someone who's in love to punch them, and items that represent true love are usually not swords and guns.

[BumblingBear]

I figure the main reason is how hard it is to weaponize the catch. They're only hurt by True Love if they try to feed so you can't just get someone who's in love to punch them, and items that represent true love are usually not swords and guns.

It depends on how creative PCs are.

I would rule that a PC coating a weapon in the blood of one who is in true love would satisfy a WCV catch.

[Becq]

You could look at it this question from the other direction.  Remember that Aspects are described as "giv[ing] you a “vote” in what sort of game you’re going to be playing in".  Why not treat the Catch the same way?

So let the player who is building their Catch decide what the Catch value is (within reason), then use that value to determine how often it comes into play.  If they choose +3, then that means they are voting to have that Catch come into play often.  Every game, and probably multiple times per game.  Perhaps the character has an enemy who knows the character's Catch, and is deliberately making that Catch more widely available somehow (pick your own reason).  If they choose +0, then they are voting to have it come into play only rarely, perhaps little more than once or twice in a campaign.  Perhaps the character is only susceptible to the most pure samples of what might otherwise be something fairly common.  (So perhaps only extremely highly refined iron, or iron with a very high carbon content, or only skillfully hand-forged iron, etc).

So let the players decide, then give them what they ask for.  (And of course, be sure to be open with them regarding the implications of their decision; this should not be pulled out as a 'Gotcha!')

[Novembermike]

It depends on how creative PCs are.

I would rule that a PC coating a weapon in the blood of one who is in true love would satisfy a WCV catch.

That seems off to me. First, the players need to identify True Love which is going to be really hard. Then, they need to keep the blood liquid since dried blood loses almost all of its potency. Finally, there's a possibility that drawing the blood would taint it from "True Love" to "aggression".

All of those are going to be tough. It's not like finding a priest with True Faith where anyone in the industry could have one on speed dial. True Love is mutually sacrificial love iirc, which doesn't really lend itself to the supernatural community and is probably temporary.