locating cellphones

[Haru]

Last night I got an idea, that kind of stuck with me.

If you want to locate someone, you need something from him, blood, hair, or his true name to do a spell that would do this. If you don't have any of this, there might still be something you possess, that could help you locate him: his cellphone number.

Or as I want to call it: his cellphones "true name". Well, technically the true name of the little card inside, but that is not the point. The point is, that there is a link between a phone number and a phone, that might transcend the technical and might help you get a connection on the magical side.

Sure, most wizards don't know about cellphones, so they would possibly never try this, but it still might be possible.

Too far fetched? Totally ok? What do you think?

[citadel97501]

That is sneaky as hell, in the voice of the boss from Breaking In, "I'll allow it".

[Roxy Rocket]

I'd go with no. Something here doesn't feel right. And in game terms this kind of locating is what scholarship and computer stuff is for.

Tracking a child using a parent's blood doesn't follow laws of chemistry or genetics. There's no rational reason behind technology failing around wizards. The mortal engineering reasons a computer or telecommunications network function probably don't have much to do with the 'true' connection between parts.

I'm reasoning with my gut here though.

[Richard_Chilton]

Maybe if you had more than just the phone number.  Every cell phone - when used - generates a log that includes the phone number and an unique serial number from the phone.  Which is useless trivia I picked up when I flipping channels and came across it on Judge Judy (someone had a cell phone bill that proved that the defendant had place his sim card in the plaintiff's phone).

That's closer to a true name than just a phone number.  Maybe you would want to add the model number to it, and maybe a couple of other numbers, to get the true name.

Of course I'd say that any successful tracing of such a high tech device would hex it, but maybe that's just me.

On the tech side of things (Burglary with the hacking stunt) - it's possible to pick up what's being said around any cell phone that is turned on.  If someone is speaking within  5 to 10 feet of a cell phone then various intelligence agencies can pick up on that.  And (something I just stumbled across) all iPhones and iPods log their movements - when you plug them into your computer they generate an unencrypted (i.e. plain text) file of your GPS locations since the last time you plugged it into the phone.

Richard

[Shecky]

There's a lot of stuff in the noosphere that links a phone to an "identity" in the human mind. And since human belief seems to shape magic strongly, I'd think this is an idea not easily rejectable. Of course, in any in-game practical sense, that phone's gonna get tossed after the first time it gets tied up with magic, because nobody hangs on to a non-working phone. But for a one-shot, I think it could be doable, if the owner's identity can be sufficiently conceptualized by the tracking wizard, as the phone's "identity" is strongly linked to its owner.

[deathwombat]

Number is tied more to the account than  the actual physical phone

[Shecky]

Number is tied more to the account than  the actual physical phone

Not symbolically, it isn't. What human is really going to link it mentally more to their monthly statement than to themselves?

[MijRai]

I think the spell would blow the phone before you get an accurate guide. Once the phone goes kaplooie, the link wouldn't really work anymore, in my opinion.

[Roxy Rocket]

If the person had a highschool graduation ring with an engraved number and you ordered another such ring and combined the new ring with the knowledge of the number would you be able to track the old ring?

I don't think so.

If you had the computer code for tetris could you track people in the city playing tetris on their phones? If you had a file name for a computer virus and its code could you thaumaturgically wipe it off the internet before...it does whatever viruses do. Like, steal your cookies or whatever?

If you cut this Sim Card thing half and were trying to track one half using the other I might buy it.

[Tedronai]

I think the spell would blow the phone before you get an accurate guide. Once the phone goes kaplooie, the link wouldn't really work anymore, in my opinion.

This.

[Shecky]

If the person had a highschool graduation ring with an engraved number and you ordered another such ring and combined the new ring with the knowledge of the number would you be able to track the old ring?

I don't think so.

If you had the computer code for tetris could you track people in the city playing tetris on their phones? If you had a file name for a computer virus and its code could you thaumaturgically wipe it off the internet before...it does whatever viruses do. Like, steal your cookies or whatever?

If you cut this Sim Card thing half and were trying to track one half using the other I might buy it.

Remember, all the props for working magic are simply shortcuts, according to Harry's testimony. All it really takes is a clear mental concept of what the target is and what you're intending to do, and the props are easy shortcuts to doing that.

[Seb Wiers]

A phone's number isn't its "true name" - you can change it (without changing the SIM or any hardware).  You can also keep the same number and get a new phone, so... yeah, it's just not a very firm connection.

Besides, how far can you stretch that?  If you know my email address (which is a gmail account) could you locate my computer?  If you know my birthday, could you locate my mother?

What human is really going to link it mentally more to their monthly statement than to themselves?

Um, me?  Hell, I can barely REMEMBER my own phone number.  After all, I never dial it.  That goes for pretty much all phone numbers- nobody memorizes them any more.  My wife's phone number?  Hell if I know.  It's "2", in my mind.  (Voice mail is 1)

Remember, all the props for working magic are simply shortcuts, according to Harry's testimony. All it really takes is a clear mental concept of what the target is and what you're intending to do, and the props are easy shortcuts to doing that.

If that's the case, why do you even need the phone number?  Seems like just thinking about the person you want to find would be equally valid.  But of the shortcut is needed- well, some shortcuts are useful, and some just go in circles.

[Shecky]

Seb, you're vastly oversimplifying it (as well as being overly snarky and hand-waving). It's not a case of "just thinking" about it. Read the passages where Harry talks about the props' use - they are a stand-in for the mental process of a detailed, intimate conceptualization of precisely what the object IS. Think about how hair is used in tracking spells; it's simply a link to the person the wizard wishes to track... i.e., a shortcut (no pun intended) to THAT identity. In fact, as Harry points out more than once, using a physical link can be compromised, while a clear, exhaustive, intimate conceptualization of the target's identity (assuming, as with the hair, that the link is still accurate) removes an extra layer of linked identification.

And yes, you can change the phone's number, switch phones, etc. - just like you can shave your hair off, jump into running water, etc. No connection short of a BEING'S true name is 100% reliable, so that's not an argument against using a phone number to track a phone that is associated with it, no more than it's an argument against using hair to track the person from whom it was cut.

[Tedronai]

No connection short of a BEING'S true name is 100% reliable, so that's not an argument against using a phone number to track a phone that is associated with it, no more than it's an argument against using hair to track the person from whom it was cut.

Even a being's true name isn't 100% guaranteed if that being happens to be mortal, and thus changeable and changing.

[comprex]

Seb, you're vastly oversimplifying it (as well as being overly snarky and hand-waving). It's not a case of "just thinking" about it. Read the passages where Harry talks about the props' use - they are a stand-in for the mental process of a detailed, intimate conceptualization of precisely what the object IS. Think about how hair is used in tracking spells; it's simply a link to the person the wizard wishes to track... i.e., a shortcut (no pun intended) to THAT identity. In fact, as Harry points out more than once, using a physical link can be compromised, while a clear, exhaustive, intimate conceptualization of the target's identity (assuming, as with the hair, that the link is still accurate) removes an extra layer of linked identification.

You do realise that this brings up a completely tangential issue: what if the tracking target is completely brainwashed to believe that hair or similar taken off their own body is not actually theirs?

There is a connection there to the tracking scene in Proven Guilty, I just haven't put my finger on it.

Even a being's true name isn't 100% guaranteed if that being happens to be mortal, and thus changeable and changing.

Speaking of, this seems connected to Molly's baby hair.   In view of this thread, we could argue that Molly's belief "Charity is my mother" is far stronger here than Molly's belief "My baby hair is actually mine".