Author Topic: A bit frustrated  (Read 38666 times)

Offline sinker

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #150 on: April 28, 2011, 09:20:54 PM »
Well, I agree.  There is no difference in that both are used as a means to create the situation that deals another social stress.  My point, is that magic is not directly dealing said social stress.  For instance, using your de-pantsing spell, it would have no effect targeting an Amazonian tribal leader that isn't wearing any.  Were as, shooting someone with a fireball is shooting someone with a fireball.  You are capable of dealing physical stress to the target (even if they have armor, dodge it or whatever).

All social attacks have circumstances attached to someone, because the things people value/admire/like in others are different for everyone. What I really am wanting someone to do is describe to me how mundane social attacks differ from magical social attacks. Thus far I just can't see a difference. They both seem to have specific circumstances under which they would work, they both seem to require some sort of social response(I.E. defense), and neither of them seem to directly effect the target, but how the target is viewed by others. How is one different from the other?

I think one way to cast a clear light on the question is to take this out of Dresden Files for a moment and look at another setting: let's use a fantasy-enabled version of Feudal Japan. A game group may opt to take the "Social" stress track and reframe it as an "Honor" or "Face" track. This may end up looking like a straw-man argument, but bear with it for a moment.

So you have your high-Presence Samurai roaming the wilderness, flush with four Social/Honor stress boxes and a few honor-related Aspects. Nobody else around. Until a dastardly Wu-Jen pops from behind a tree and lets loose with a 20-shift spell attacking the Samurai's honor (targeting the Social stress track).

What is that spell going to look like?

Without long term mind/appearance/fate-altering effects that would cause the Samurai to do something unusual in the presence of others it's not possible. You can't effect how someone is viewed in an immediate manner unless there's someone to view them. If he was standing in the middle of the area capitol on the other hand that's different.

Offline Taran

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #151 on: April 28, 2011, 11:29:34 PM »

Without long term mind/appearance/fate-altering effects that would cause the Samurai to do something unusual in the presence of others it's not possible. You can't effect how someone is viewed in an immediate manner unless there's someone to view them. If he was standing in the middle of the area capitol on the other hand that's different.

I somewhat disagree with this.  Social combat, as I've mentionned before, is more than shaming someone in front of their peers.  If characters are having a debate to convince each other of something, you would use social combat.  I could see a missionary coming to the "New World" and using social combat to convert the locals to his faith.  This would be an extreme consequence aimed at changing someones High Concept and it would take time.  I see the social stress track as how a person perceives themselves and their place in the world/universe and how confident they are in it.  This is my issue with magic doing direct social stress.  Yes, the Wu-Jen makes the samuai re-live every dishonourable deed he's ever done, it causes an extreme consequence and his sense of who he is and his honour is changed.  I really like this example, but it's a Law-breaker.  You're going into his head and forcing him to re-live shameful events.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 11:35:42 PM by Taran »

Offline sinker

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #152 on: April 28, 2011, 11:43:23 PM »
I see the social stress track as how a person perceives themselves and their place in the world/universe and how confident they are in it.

Except this is the very definition of mental stress. Check out the chapter on mental conflict.

Offline devonapple

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #153 on: April 28, 2011, 11:45:23 PM »
Yes, the Wu-Jen makes the samuai re-live every dishonourable deed he's ever done, it causes an extreme consequence and his sense of who he is and his honour is changed.  I really like this example, but it's a Law-breaker.  You're going into his head and forcing him to re-live shameful events.

So what we seem to have so far:

Magical Social Maneuvers:
One can use magic to create Aspects to tag in Social Conflicts.
Requires justification, but it is usually easy.
Lawbreaker options are easy to justify.
Non-Lawbreaker options are easy to justify.

Magical Social Attacks:
One can use magic to directly attack one's Social Stress track during a Social Conflict.
Lawbreaker options are easy to justify.
Non-Lawbreaker options must be extremely well-justified.

Magical Social Blocks (Target: Others):
One can use magic to directly Block another's actions during a Social Conflict.
Lawbreaker options are easy to justify.
Non-Lawbreaker options must be extremely well-justified.

Magical Social Blocks (Target: Self):

One can use magic to directly Block actions against oneself during a Social Conflict.
Lawbreaker options are very easy to justify.
Non-Lawbreaker options require a little more justification.
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Offline evileeyore

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #154 on: April 28, 2011, 11:52:19 PM »
So what we seem to have so far:

Magical Social Maneuvers:
One can use magic to create Aspects to tag in Social Conflicts.
Requires justification, but it is usually easy.
Lawbreaker options are easy to justify.
Non-Lawbreaker options are easy to justify.

Magical Social Attacks:
One can use magic to directly attack one's Social Stress track during a Social Conflict.
Lawbreaker options are easy to justify.
Non-Lawbreaker options must be extremely well-justified.

Magical Social Blocks (Target: Others):
One can use magic to directly Block another's actions during a Social Conflict.
Lawbreaker options are easy to justify.
Non-Lawbreaker options must be extremely well-justified.

Magical Social Blocks (Target: Self):

One can use magic to directly Block actions against oneself during a Social Conflict.
Lawbreaker options are very easy to justify.
Non-Lawbreaker options require a little more justification.

I am willing to accept Lawbreaker is a likely occurance to unsubtle, uncarefull, Social Magics.


Long term Thaumaturgical cursing seems a much easier and less "Law Breakery" method, but it has the draw back of "not immediately usefull".  Like a long slow curse instead of a Fireball to the chops.

Offline mostlyawake

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #155 on: April 28, 2011, 11:55:54 PM »
there is absolutely nothing in the rules that forbids creating a thaum. ritual that replaces your rapport skill with a magical skill of 9 (or 13, or whatever) until the next sunrise.  RAW, that's completely valid.

So is a spell that replaces your guns with a 9 for the same duration.


This is pretty much directly out of the Thaum. section of YS, and is allowed.  The complexity of the ritual is equal to the level you want to set the skill.  All thaumaturgy ends, unless you intentionally change duration by varying complexity, at the next sunrise.

So every morning any thaumaturgist could cook up a simple little ritual that gives him 5 alertness. (or any other skill).

Superior Senses (Biomancy)
Complexity 5
The character uses magic to heighten his own senses, fine-tuning them to perfection.  This lasts until the next sunrise.

If you're a high discipline person, you could easily dump 3 points of power into this spell every exchange and have it completed in 2 exchanges.  As the exchange time for thaumaturgy is NOT listed in the books but IS supposed to be longer than that of a combat round (as that is evocation's speed), I'd argue that any thaumaturge worth his salt could pull this off in 2 minutes.

Because this quickly turns into an alchemist with lore 5, item strength +5 (from foci and specializations), so the person now has access to on-the-fly spells that give them a rating of 10 in any skill they want, I -as a GM - began imposing a consequence for any spell that set your attribute over your normal maximum skill level for your refresh level.  I also ruled that all potions last at most one scene, and the default potion time is "a few moments".  Which is more generous than the novels, where potions tend to last what would be just a few combat rounds/exchanges.

An example of this from our game was:
Eagle Eye Potion, take 1 (potion strength 10)
Drinking this potion gives the character guns 10 for a few moments. After the potion wears off, the imbiber takes a mild consequence of "blurry vision".

Eagle Eye Potion, take 2 (potion strength 10)
Drinking this potion gives the character guns 5 and alertness 5 for a few moments.  No consequence is applied (neither skill went over the normal maximum of 5 for that character, he just made the potion effectively carry 2 spell effects, which is allowable)

---- Anyways, yes, you can totally use a spell to raise your rating in a skill to a level equal to the complexity of your spell.  Whether or not you can do this on the fly with soulfire (thaum at the speed of evocation) is up to your GM, as that issue hasnt been clarified (soulfire doesnt specifically say "at the speed of evocation", where every other sponsored magic says that. It has not been clarified if this was simply forgotten, or was not supposed to apply to soulfire... so it's debatable).

If you CAN use it on the fly, then you could model the character's CALM DOWN! action as raising your intimidation skill to the level of power you set the spell at, then making a normal intimidation attack. That attack would deal normal stress and cause consequences but would NOT specifically inhibit actions as you stated.  However, if someone got an aspect of "cowed" or the like, you could then, yes, invoke for effect (tagging the consequence for free, as you can do once with any consequence that you create), meaning that the bad guy either can't act but gains a Fate point, or can act but pays a fate point.

 


Offline devonapple

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #156 on: April 28, 2011, 11:57:59 PM »
I am willing to accept Lawbreaker is a likely occurance to unsubtle, uncarefull, Social Magics.

I see it as a sort of Dark Side/Light Side type of situation. The Dark Side's appeal is usually its ease of use: if you're willing to resort to Lawbreaker-status solutions, a lot of these tactics can be pretty easily justified in the narrative.

---- Anyways, yes, you can totally use a spell to raise your rating in a skill to a level equal to the complexity of your spell.  Whether or not you can do this on the fly with soulfire (thaum at the speed of evocation) is up to your GM... If you CAN use it on the fly, then you could model the character's CALM DOWN! action as raising your intimidation skill to the level of power you set the spell at, then making a normal intimidation attack. That attack would deal normal stress and cause consequences but would NOT specifically inhibit actions as you stated.  However, if someone got an aspect of "cowed" or the like, you could then, yes, invoke for effect (tagging the consequence for free, as you can do once with any consequence that you create), meaning that the bad guy either can't act but gains a Fate point, or can act but pays a fate point.

And a masterful return to the original question!
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

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Offline mostlyawake

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #157 on: April 29, 2011, 12:05:11 AM »


Magical Social Blocks (Target: Self):

One can use magic to directly Block actions against oneself during a Social Conflict.
Lawbreaker options are very easy to justify.
Non-Lawbreaker options require a little more justification.

i'd put non-lawbreaker as easy to justify... theoretically you are creating a mental ward, not invading someone else's mind or forcing someone to act against their own wishes.  

Offline Taran

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #158 on: April 29, 2011, 12:29:39 AM »
Except this is the very definition of mental stress. Check out the chapter on mental conflict.

Yes, you're right.  It's right there word for word.  So, in order to convince someone to change their beleifs, you need to do mental damage?  How would you even do that mechanically - without magic, I mean.  It really seems to suit social conflict.  Or make someone see your point of view?

When two PC's are in disagreement as to how to proceed, the easiest way, in game, is to have them do social combat in order to convince the other.  So if one is firmly defending his position because of religious beleifs, you have to do mental stress?  This doesn't make sense to me.

Anyways, just stepping back and seeing everyone's opinions, this is what I came up with and it is very similar to evileyore listed:

1. You can buff your social skills with thaumaturgy
2. you can use thaumaturgy to give yourself aspect that you can tag in social combat
3. You can maneuver and block with evocation and this will not break any Laws (but is grey and be used with caution)
4. You can use Thaumaturgy and Evocation to do direct social damage as per attacking with magic. 

#4 attacks a persons sense of self or self-identity and is considered a Law breaker. **

**apparently it doesn't attack a persons sense of self...it just attacks...something no-one can quantify.  In any case, it invades their mind.

@mostlyawake.  Thank-you, you summed it up very nicely.


Offline toturi

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #159 on: April 29, 2011, 12:47:14 AM »
Yes, you're right.  It's right there word for word.  So, in order to convince someone to change their beleifs, you need to do mental damage?  How would you even do that mechanically - without magic, I mean.  It really seems to suit social conflict.  Or make someone see your point of view?
If we take Night Fears to be canon (at least DFRPG canon, if not the Dresdenverse at large) then Mental Attacks do not seem to be all that difficult. Take it this way, those kids in Night Fears stand a chance of a trip to the loony house just by trying to scare each other with ghost stories. Social Stress, sure. But Mental Stress? Well, it seems you cannot swing a dead cat without inflicting Mental Stress.
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Offline sinker

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #160 on: April 29, 2011, 01:00:24 AM »
Yes, you're right.  It's right there word for word.  So, in order to convince someone to change their beleifs, you need to do mental damage?  How would you even do that mechanically - without magic, I mean.  It really seems to suit social conflict.  Or make someone see your point of view?

When two PC's are in disagreement as to how to proceed, the easiest way, in game, is to have them do social combat in order to convince the other.  So if one is firmly defending his position because of religious beleifs, you have to do mental stress?  This doesn't make sense to me.

I think this is the part that I'm really having a hard time with and the question I'm trying to answer myself. If social stress is a flat representation of someone's social standing or face, then I don't see why one couldn't easily create a situation influencing that with non-lawbreaking magic. If it has more depth to it then there's some weird overlap with mental stress. Does anyone have a firm grip on social stress and how it works? I think I'm going to spend some of my time tonight reading about it.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #161 on: April 29, 2011, 01:02:59 AM »
I take Night Fears to be a special case. It's a bunch of teenagers in a horror story. It would probably take more to inflict mental stress in almost any other situation.

By the way, I would not allow social evocation attacks even with Lawbreaker.

Offline evileeyore

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #162 on: April 29, 2011, 03:06:29 AM »
I see it as a sort of Dark Side/Light Side type of situation.

Ah yes, the Force.  A Light Side, a Dark Side, and it requires both to hold the Universe together.   :D

By the way, I would not allow social evocation attacks even with Lawbreaker.

Do you know how I know you're a fun ruiner?   ;)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #163 on: April 29, 2011, 03:10:41 AM »
I see it as preserving the fun, actually.

Unless you mean fun on this thread, in which case I don't know what you're talking about.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #164 on: April 29, 2011, 03:21:23 AM »
Likely it'll cause him to face any and every shameful or cowardly act he's ever committed.  He'll have to reasses his Honor, failure to resist and he takes Honor Stress, his moral fabric is weakened.  That all this takes place in a heartbeat is appropriate for the genre.

Sounds like a mental attack, to me.
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