Desperate Hour questions

[Michael Sandy]

I have been toying with making a holy wizard character.  Basically a stunt that allows Evocation effects to carry the Holy Touch effect.

At
-2 Righteousness
-1 Holy touch
-1 Holy Magic
-3 Evocation

It has the same cost as a starting wizard of the High Council.  But I really want a nasty Desperate Hour.  I want a whole Avenging Angel aspect so that bad guys would really hesitate before killing an innocent in my presence.

So how would you buy a stunt that boosts desperate hour?  It is already a maximum of once per scene ability.  Would a stunt give +2 to the roll?  +1 to the roll and +2 damage?

How would you do magic items and/or refinements that would boost it?

[Sanctaphrax]

From the Homebrew Stunts Master list:

Strength In The Most Desperate Hour: Your faith is always strongest in times of desperate need. When using the Desperate Hour trapping of the Righteousness power, your attack with Conviction is weapon: 2.

It's probably a bit underpowered. +2 to the roll would be fine by me.

Foci for Desperate Hour are not allowed by the RAW. But 1 focus slot for +1 to Desperate Hour would not offend me.

[sinker]

I would think a stunt that gives a +2 bonus to Desperate Hour would be fine. It doesn't really matter if it's weapon:2 or a +2 to the roll as it's going to do the same thing either way. I suppose +2 to the roll would be better as it would make it more likely to hit. That's probably as far as I'd go though. Adding foci/enchanted items/refinements may get a little ridiculous. I suppose if you really wanted to add further the best way would likely be to have an enchanted item that would give you aspects to tag for the roll.

The one thing I think might have balance issues is holy magic actually. Consider that holy touch allows you to make weapon:1 attacks that satisfy the "holy" catch. Holy Magic would allow you to make weapon:8 or zone-wide weapon:6 attacks that satisfy the holy catch.... That would be relatively easy to cast and would instantly incinerate whole rooms full of baddies. It's quite a bit more powerful. Then again Soulfire has the same effect plus some and is only 1 refresh higher than any other sponsored magic, but it also has all of the strings that come with sponsored magic. It is quite a bit more expensive, but I'd say drop holy touch and holy magic (and evocation) and pick up soulfire. It does what you want (and more), but is RAW.

[Crion]

I have been toying with making a holy wizard character.  Basically a stunt that allows Evocation effects to carry the Holy Touch effect.

At
-2 Righteousness
-1 Holy touch
-1 Holy Magic
-3 Evocation

It has the same cost as a starting wizard of the High Council.  But I really want a nasty Desperate Hour.  I want a whole Avenging Angel aspect so that bad guys would really hesitate before killing an innocent in my presence.

So how would you buy a stunt that boosts desperate hour?  It is already a maximum of once per scene ability.  Would a stunt give +2 to the roll?  +1 to the roll and +2 damage?

How would you do magic items and/or refinements that would boost it?

I'm going to be a n00b here: what exactly is "Holy Magic"? Is that a power, a stunt, something homebrew?

Sorry to ask, just curious.

--Crion

[sinker]

I was figuring it was this:

Basically a stunt that allows Evocation effects to carry the Holy Touch effect.

[Sanctaphrax]

Take a look at the custom power thread.

Also, Catch-satisfying evocations are fine by me. If you take a +2 catch like Holy, you can expect to see it satisfied from time to time. If you want to make the baddy tougher, give him a tougher catch.

[Michael Sandy]

Sorry, I should have included the description of the proposed power in this thread.

But I am figuring that since the difference in cost between Soulfire and regular Sponsored magic is -1 refresh, and the most significant difference in the effect is it is treated as holy, then going Righteousness+Holy Touch + Holy Magic would give a similar effect.  So you would be essentially trading the sponsor effects for Righteousness, which seems a mostly fair trade.

I like the name "Strength In The Most Desperate Hour" for the stunt.

As far as being able to defeat large numbers of evil supernaturals at once, that is sort of the point.  A holy mage would terrify monsters, but be much less effective vs a warlock, or clued in mobsters.  So it would be a niche specialization within the party.

[ways and means]

The most signigicant difference from soulfire and other sponsored magic is the toughness degeneration.

[sinker]

But I am figuring that since the difference in cost between Soulfire and regular Sponsored magic is -1 refresh, and the most significant difference in the effect is it is treated as holy, then going Righteousness+Holy Touch + Holy Magic would give a similar effect.  So you would be essentially trading the sponsor effects for Righteousness, which seems a mostly fair trade.

Except that soulfire must also take into account the restrictions that sponsored magic has. Like the sponsor's agenda, and a high concept that's likely to be compelled for tough choices. Evocation with a holy addition has none of those downsides.

As far as being able to defeat large numbers of evil supernaturals at once, that is sort of the point.  A holy mage would terrify monsters, but be much less effective vs a warlock, or clued in mobsters.  So it would be a niche specialization within the party.

Same issue here. Evocation won't be any less effective against warlocks or clued in mobsters when it's holy. Unless you have some sort of restriction you haven't said anything about.

More than anything it seems to me that you're trying to cobble something together to make something that there are already rules for. Is there a reason why you don't want soulfire?

[Michael Sandy]

Part of it is there is a lot more vagueness in the description of soulfire and the other sponsored magics compared to Holy touch and Righteousness.  Granted, righteousness and the other faith power have their own limits, but with sponsored magic it would be continually, "Well, can I do *this* with my magic?"  I don't want to have negotiate over every single spell I might cast, and that is the sense I get about any sponsored magic.

When I said that a holy mage would be weaker versus warlocks, I meant he would be weaker compared to other wizard builds.  Spending 4 refresh and probably his item slots on stuff related to beating up on supernatural foes means he would not be as effective as a wizard who spent refinements on their main evocation style.

And that would be true whether it is bought as soulfire or any other way.

Also, you can get a submerged character with the Champion of God template with holy magic and evocation (or channeling).  You can't get a submerged character with the Champion of God template and Soulfire.

[sinker]

The biggest reason I ask is because I've played said character (the champion of god, with soulfire in lieu of other powers). All you need is an initial firm idea of how your powers will work and what your sponsor's agenda entails for you. I was playing a character with a firm bent towards justice and righteous wrath, so for me the sponsor's agenda had to do with righting wrongs, protecting innocents (or thereabouts), and destroying those who would harm others. I determined that my soulfire would be about protective light, white flames, and (because the character had the warrior and the nurturer fighting within her) calming soothing healing power. Then I simply did what fit within that template. If the GM called shenanigans on anything I was doing (which happened rarely), I gave him my reasoning for it and he made a call. It wasn't that hard.

If you're worried about the cost, Soulfire costs exactly as much as evocation, holy magic and holy touch combined and does everything those powers do (with the limitation that you get more powerful effects for the cost of mental stress).

If you're worried about the integrity of the template I say the templates are only useful when they're helping you. When they get in the way of making a good character then it's time to chuck them.

[Tedronai]

The most signigicant difference from soulfire and other sponsored magic is the toughness degeneration.

Or, with soulfire, that it grants 'the full range of thaumaturgy spells', ie. full thaumaturgy (save the ability to purchase refinement for the purpose of specialization bonuses), where all other RAW Sponsored Magics thaumaturgical access is in some way limited in scope beyond even the sponsor's agenda.

[sinker]

The most signigicant difference from soulfire and other sponsored magic is the toughness degeneration.

Also I would say this isn't at all true. The most significant mechanical difference between soulfire and other sponsored magic may the toughness degeneration, but I'd say the most significant difference is actually between the sponsor's agendas and the kinds of things one will likely do serving one or the other.