grapples and strength powers

[ways and means]

I was wondering do people think that breaking physical blocks (such as spirit barriers and grapples) is a legitimate use of the lifting,bending, breaking trapping of the strength powers.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I'm inclined to say no.  Its combat applications seem outside what the trapping was trying to accomplish.  You get a bonus to grapples (YS183, Bruising Strength) and Hammer Blows for other blocks.  Those numbers are lower than the bonus for lifting, etc for a reason. 

[Tedronai]

Unless a 'physical block' is the mechanic being used to represent being restrained by an inanimate (non-responsive) object, then the answer is objectively 'No'.  If that is what's going on, then the answer is...'Maybe'.

[Belial666]

My answer is "yes" for four reasons;

Wording: a physical block is not animate and it definitely isn't a creature. So something that breaks inanimate objects should work on it
Consistency: strength powers can already be used to break physical blocks - such as walls, doors and buildings. There's even a chart assigning block strength to such objects. So there's no reason they should not be used against other forms of physical blocks.
Balance: wizards are strong already while melee fighters are mechanically weaker. Allowing it redresses that problem.
Flavor: if you don't allow it, a human boxing champ hitting with his fists (superb skill) has a better chance of breaking a physical block than a black court master with supernatural strength hitting with his claws (great skill) even though the black court master's blows are more physically powerful than a rocket launcher. Since we are talking about a wizard making a block against physical force this doesn't make sense.


Seeing as there are four fairly solid reasons for a "yes", I am allowing it in my games.

[Tedronai]

My answer is "yes" for four reasons;

Wording: a physical block is not animate and it definitely isn't a creature. So something that breaks inanimate objects should work on it

A physical block, in general, as the game term, while not being animate, is not an object.  It is a circumstance, or set of circumstances, that might include an object.

Consistency: strength powers can already be used to break physical blocks - such as walls, doors and buildings. There's even a chart assigning block strength to such objects. So there's no reason they should not be used against other forms of physical blocks.

and thus, 'maybe', depending on circumstances, when appropriate

Balance: wizards are strong already while melee fighters are mechanically weaker. Allowing it redresses that problem.
Flavor: if you don't allow it, a human boxing champ hitting with his fists (superb skill) has a better chance of breaking a physical block than a black court master with supernatural strength hitting with his claws (great skill) even though the black court master's blows are more physically powerful than a rocket launcher. Since we are talking about a wizard making a block against physical force this doesn't make sense.

A character with great skill and supernatural strength defends against a grapple, a particular form of physical block, at superb.  This is because the strength powers do not impart additional mass, nor necessarily the skill with which to use the imparted strength - proper leverage, anticipation, and response can still be of great significance.  For other forms of 'physical block', this may vary, and rightly so.  Immense strength will do you no good against a block created by a wall of supernaturally intense flame or a hail of bullets, but would be particularly effective against a 'block' created by being bound in ropes or chains.

Seeing as there are four fairly solid reasons for a "yes", I am allowing it in my games.

There are situations when the lifting/breaking modifiers would likely be appropriate, but I would urge caution in applying them too freely.

[ways and means]

A character with great skill and supernatural strength defends against a grapple, a particular form of physical block, at superb.  This is because the strength powers do not impart additional mass, nor necessarily the skill with which to use the imparted strength - proper leverage, anticipation, and response can still be of great significance.  

Hulking Size the power that does give you the mass etc to resist a grapple with your definition of the lifting breaking power does not give any bonus to grapple defence. Even though it would be impossible for a Human sized mortal without strength powers to grapple (block on all actions) something with Hulking Size and Mythic Strength say Sue the Tyrannosaurs Rex this only provides a +3 bonus against grapples with your definition.   

[Belial666]

proper leverage, anticipation, and response can still be of great significance.

This is a problem with the whole "skill beats strength" fantasy cliche. A human wrestler has to use skill to break a human arm because his arms are about as strong as the other guy's arms and he needs an advantage. A black court vampire (if it existed) doesn't need skill to break your arm. It can throw around cars or punch through walls; if it grabs your arm and simply squeezes, you got one less arm. Since in any sort of close-quarters fighting you are grabbing eachother, it can just sqeeze any of your parts it gets its hands on and you lose them. It is like those warnings on hydraulic presses; don't put your hands in them. Leverage and skill don't do squat vs 1 ton of force because there simply isn't any part of your body that can absorb it.


Of course, that kind of realistic approach doesn't fit in most fantasy stories.

[DFJunkie]

The breaking bonuses should come into play only if the goal of the action is to end the Block.  If the character with the Strength power is attempting to attack through it and inflict stress it would be based on skills both because of the whole "a whatever is a whatever" principle.  There are plenty of in-game reasons that even a terrifyingly powerful force could be countered by a magical block affecting physical force: the caster changed the angle of the shield, allowing it to shed most of the force or made it flexible enough to rebound, etc.

[Ala Alba]

Hulking Size the power that does give you the mass etc to resist a grapple with your definition of the lifting breaking power does not give any bonus to grapple defence. Even though it would be impossible for a Human sized mortal without strength powers to grapple (block on all actions) something with Hulking Size and Mythic Strength say Sue the Tyrannosaurs Rex this only provides a +3 bonus against grapples with your definition.   

Part of the normal grapple rules is that you need an aspect to tag that makes sense in terms of grapple opportunity. Which you're not likely to be able to justify when it comes to a pure mortal trying to grapple a T. Rex.