Can you use Breath Weapon to defend?

[citadel97501]

Hello all,

I was looking at the rules for Breath Weapon again, and I was wondering if anyone has issues with using it to defend with the Melee Defense trapping?  This seems like it could go either way, since its a weapon but isn't exactly held in your hand. 

Primarily since I have seen so many complaints about changing the attack skill, I was thinking about leaving it as is and adjusting the character around the skill instead of the other way around?  I think it could also allow the character to be adapted down to lower power levels, easily. 

[Haru]

I'd say no, that would be stretching it too far. You could however create aspects with it and use them to boost your blocks. After all, it is before everything else a weapon and should still be used as such.

You could create a power that would let you create a block similar to breath weapon, but that would probably be at either block:2 or armor:1, and then, why not just take inhuman toughness?

[zenten]

If you can do a Block with a gun then why not with a breath weapon?

Actual Defence rolls are something I wouldn't allow without a Stunt or the like though.

[ways and means]

I would allow defense with breath weapon there are plenty of ways to describe defending with breath weapon ie walls of fire ect and if breath weapons can't at least do all the things a normal weapon can do then it is an aweful power especially compared to claws which not only allows defense it upgrades it so that- you can block swords etc.

[sinker]

I don't have any issue with someone using breath weapon to create blocks. On their turn and using their action. I do however have an issue with someone using breath weapon as a defense roll. But really there are any number of other things someone can do to use their weapons skill to defend. Chief among them the declaration of "oh look there's a pipe/2x4/other random object there."

[Haru]

And here I mixed everything up. I should probably go to bed...

A block like with guns would be ok, I think. Anything else though, especially defense rolls would still be off limits. It is just a different type of "gun", so that should work.


... and to all a good night.

[citadel97501]

I guess I am going to have to argue in my own question thread...

This power has a lot of room for adjustments to change the skill, or the thing being thrown but lets just stick with the power as it is written for now, as anything else will cloud the argument to much. 

Mechanically, it provides you with a weapon that does +2 stress and can be thrown a single zone away, this follows the trappings of the Weaponry skill exactly.  In fact you could probably get the same effects out of carrying a Throwing Axe, (I suggested ax because it should do more damage than a throwing knife simulating the weapon 2.)

Since were using the Weaponry Defense trapping, it can only defend against Fists, and Weaponry attacks, and no where in the rules for the Weaponry Defense trapping does it say you can't defend yourself with a throwing knife or other small weapon that you can throw. 

I am beginning to think that the Breath Weapon power is receiving excessive penalties from the forums due to the idea of it being seen only as a breath weapon and not as just a power to provide a weapon. 

[Tsunami]

Creating blocks would be no problem.

Justifying a Weapons Defense roll with breath Weapon... that i would not allow.
Breath weapon basically uses the Thrown Weapons trapping. And you wouldn't allow someone to defend with a shuriken for example, would you ? I wouldn't.

You can however easily construct a stunt that transplants the Dodge trapping to weapons, and then describe your defense as a use of your breath weapon.

Addendum Incorporating the latest post:
A throwing axe could however just as easily be used as a melee weapon as well as a thrown weapon, so there is easy justification for a melee defense roll. Breath Weapon does not necessarily provide that justification.
And not every possible thrown weapon, take the shuriken example i mentioned, provides that justification either.

Also: carrying a throwing axe does not provide the same benefit. A throwing axe can be used once, then it has to be recovered. It can be taken away. Breath weapon removes those limitations.

So, i'd simply judge Breath Weapon to be a thrown weapon of which you have an unlimited supply, which is great, and that cannot be taken away from you, which is even better, but does not provide justification for a melee defense roll.

You can however construct a breath weapon that would provide said justification, but i think it's pretty balanced even without that.

[ways and means]

I personally think Breath Weapon is an awfully expensive power compaired to strength (if you throw paper clips with inhuman strength you do 2 damage for the same cost as breath weapon and you can lift stuff).

The only time I have ever found Breath Weapon worth the refresh is when I used it to model a power of a paladin from Hellsing to summon Holy bayonettes out of thin air, but that was only because it fufilled common catches and allowed me to defend and also was  augmentable by strength powers.

[Bruce Coulson]

Block, yes; any ranged weapon could be used to Block, just by laying down suppressive fire.  ("I'm shooting to keep his head down so he misses.")

Defense?  That's trickier.  Depending on the declaration ("I'm using my fire breath to force him back so he can't get a good swing on me.") I might allow it, especially if it's good for the story...

[sinker]

Since were using the Weaponry Defense trapping, it can only defend against Fists, and Weaponry attacks, and no where in the rules for the Weaponry Defense trapping does it say you can't defend yourself with a throwing knife or other small weapon that you can throw.  

One could point out that no where in the rules does it say that one CAN defend yourself with a throwing knife. Thus we are left to our better judgement. I would think it would likely be very difficult to defend yourself with any throwing weapon, as they are as stripped down as possible to make them better for throwing. Even a throwing axe is usually small and light and would not give you the leverage to defend reliably against something bigger, such as a pipe or sword. If someone can explain to me how they are defending themselves with a throwing weapon I might allow them to use throwing weapons for defense, just as I would with breath weapon. However my natural inclination is to initially say that would be VERY difficult at best and impossible at worst.

To address the cost concern I'd almost just combine the claws and breath weapon into one power costing 1 refresh. Whether something works at range or not really doesn't seem to have a great impact to the stories my group and I create, so I don't think I'd have an issue reducing the cost.

[citadel97501]

One could point out that no where in the rules does it say that one CAN defend yourself with a throwing knife. Thus we are left to our better judgement. I would think it would likely be very difficult to defend yourself with any throwing weapon, as they are as stripped down as possible to make them better for throwing. Even a throwing axe is usually small and light and would not give you the leverage to defend reliably against something bigger, such as a pipe or sword. If someone can explain to me how they are defending themselves with a throwing weapon I might allow them to use throwing weapons for defense, just as I would with breath weapon. However my natural inclination is to initially say that would be VERY difficult at best and impossible at worst.

To address the cost concern I'd almost just combine the claws and breath weapon into one power costing 1 refresh. Whether something works at range or not really doesn't seem to have a great impact to the stories my group and I create, so I don't think I'd have an issue reducing the cost.

Those are very reasonable points, and the cost issue I happen to agree with.  I personally have had some knife fighting training and your right, trying to parry a larger weapon is going to hurt, its probably just a better idea to dodge (Athletics). 

[InFerrumVeritas]

The way I'd look at it (but I'm new, so take it as you will) is like so:

You can use it as a Block.  It's really pretty simple, like suppressive fire, you can use your breath weapon to prevent your opponent from attacking. 

However, once your opponent attacks (that is, succeeds against a Block or if there is no block), you can't use your breath weapon for a defense roll. 

Basically, you can actively use your breath weapon to defend, but not passively.

[Saedar]

The way I'd look at it (but I'm new, so take it as you will) is like so:

You can use it as a Block.  It's really pretty simple, like suppressive fire, you can use your breath weapon to prevent your opponent from attacking. 

However, once your opponent attacks (that is, succeeds against a Block or if there is no block), you can't use your breath weapon for a defense roll. 

Basically, you can actively use your breath weapon to defend, but not passively.

This is how I would run it at my table.

[Kommisar]

It all depends on how you are flavoring your "Breath Weapon".  Not all defenses/armor work against all attacks.  That is an element that I think has been missing in this debate.

For instance, say you have the typical Fire Breathing type.  Well, then someone wearing mortal armor; whether that is full plate mail or modern kevlar) does not get to use his armor to protect against this type of attack.  But, someone wearing one of those shiny flame resistant suits that wouldn't stop a bullet or sword at all would provide "armor" protection against the flame attack.

Along these same lines, most GMs are not going to allow someone wielding a long sword to use his weapon skill to defend against a guy a zone away firing at him with a shotgun (assuming no stunts and other wonkiness).

My opinion is that not all "Breath Weapons" are equal and that no blanket answer/ruling is going to cover all of them.