Beast Change

[Kerberos]

Were-Parrot/Crow/Raven (speech).

Can crows and ravens speak? To be honest though I didn't think about parrots, that could give you speech within the rules. Parrots aren't very good in a fight though so that eliminates one of the primary draws on the Beast Change power. It is a possibility though.

Were-Monkey/Chimp/Gorrilla (sign language/writing/opposable thumbs).

Fair enough, I'll concede that you can in fact get some kind of functional hands (though I'm not sure how good monkeys are with their hands, I think they're less agile than human hands, but I could be wrong).

I can't imagine why a wizard would not be able to cast magic after shapeshifting, given that shapeshifting is itself magic.

Because magic usually requires speech and tools and few beast can do either and none can do both. It's not flat out prohibited to have a fireball slinging werewolf or were-parrot, but you might need a gracious GM.
 

Furthermore, unlike, say, Living Dead, there are no social penalties for Beast Change(the changes are "only ... cosmetic").

Of cause there are social penalties (or in some case bonuses). You turn into an animal and that will affect how people react to you. As for the only cosmetic changes that refers to not getting free superstrenght or free claws, so that's a bit out of context.

Finally, True Shapeshifting gives you the ability to use infinitely many skillsets without requiring the beast part of it. The fact that you can rearrange your skills however you want, whenever you want, is more than enough to justify the increase from -1 to -4.

Yes, true shape-changing allows you to shift into human forms, Beast change however does not.

[admiralducksauce]

I think it's a contextual issue, and something that would be obvious during a practical example.  You'd know if someone was using Beast Change in a lame way, and at that point you punch them in their girlfriend.  Doesn't matter if they're being lame as a raven or as a gorilla or what, exploitation has a feel to it.

FWIW, I feel like it's better to say yes and then scale it back if there's a problem (or charge more refresh for it) rather than try to forsee every possible abuse.

[Sanctaphrax]

@Kerberos:

All negative effects of Beast Change should be handled as compels.

The power does not say that it prevents spellcasting, speech, etc. Therefore it does not, unless circumstances (and aspects) dictate otherwise.

It just says that you turn into a beast. Humans are arguably beasts.

If you think that the power is undercosted, you may well be right. However, your solution of endless uncompensated compels does not improve matters.

[devonapple]

and at that point you punch them in their girlfriend

Nice PDQ reference! ::evil horns:: Easy to take the wrong way without context, alas.

[Kerberos]

@Kerberos:

All negative effects of Beast Change should be handled as compels.

The power does not say that it prevents spellcasting, speech, etc. Therefore it does not, unless circumstances (and aspects) dictate otherwise.

It says that you turn into a beast, therefore you turn into a beast and can't speak, unless it's a parrot. Even if you think the text in the RPG is open to interpretation we know that Werewolves can't speak from the actual books.

It just says that you turn into a beast. Humans are arguably beasts.

No, humans are animals, beast are "any nonhuman animal, especially a large, four-footed mammal." Besides if humans qualified as beast there'd be no reason for the true shape-shifting power to specify that "You may take on nearly any
humanoid or beastly form".

If you think that the power is undercosted, you may well be right. However, your solution of endless uncompensated compels does not improve matters.

I don't think it's undercosted - I think you're misinterpreting the power. You shouldn't get free fate for being unable to speak in eagle form, anymore that you should get free fate for being unable to fly in human form.

[Sanctaphrax]

The definition of beast varies. Many (perhaps most) say nonhuman animal, some just say animal.

However, Beast Change can turn you into things that don't exist. There's no reason that you can't turn into a centaur or dragon form with it, and such things might be able to speak.

My basic point is this: powers do not do anything that they do not say they do. Beast Change does not say that it disables you in such ways. Therefore it does not.

[Kerberos]

The definition of beast varies. Many (perhaps most) say nonhuman animal, some just say animal.

Even if that was correct, we can see from the phrasing of the true shape-shifting power that the Dresden RPG uses the standard definition.

However, Beast Change can turn you into things that don't exist. There's no reason that you can't turn into a centaur or dragon form with it, and such things might be able to speak.

It's disputable whether those truly count as beasts, though certainly you could argue for it. I think I've been fairly clear in distinguishing between my opinion (that speech and functional hands are a bit fishy) and the clear fact that the power (as written) does no allow you to change into another human.

My basic point is this: powers do not do anything that they do not say they do. Beast Change does not say that it disables you in such ways. Therefore it does not.

And my point is that some things don't need to be said, particularly not in a story driven system such as this one. And of cause we can see in the books that my interpretation is correct. Werewolves simply cannot speak.

[Sanctaphrax]

1. I really hate it when people use the novels in this sort of discussion. Just a pet peeve of mine.

2. I view werewolves not speaking as a compel. If they buy it off, then their inability to speak poses no problem and they get their point across anyway.

3. That you cannot change into another human is not a clear fact. It might (or might not) be the best interpretation, but it isn't a clear fact.

4. The wording of True Shapeshifting proves nothing. This is not a mathematical treatise: it's a game rulebook. The terminology can be fuzzy.

TL; DR: This is not a question that has a clear answer. Letting people turn into people isn't a houserule, it's an interpretation of the rules. And your seeming belief that these things are intended as balancing factors for Beast Change is very questionable.

[devonapple]

To go back to the examples of Jekyll/Hyde and Banner/Hulk, those seem like good candidates for a Humanoid version of Beast Change. However, one should take into account that both of their alternate forms had serious social disadvantages.

Hyde "put off" everyone who ever met him, though he generally chose to associate with lowlifes and rabble. And the Hulk? Giant green monster.

So, yes, both of them could qualify for a Skill Shuffle as well as a set of Inhuman Powers linked to an Human Form with an additional discount for how Uncontrollable it seemed to be for each of them.

But these are from other fictions: one, an analysis of the nature of evil using a character with an expiration date; the other, an ongoing comic book.

1. I really hate it when people use the novels in this sort of discussion. Just a pet peeve of mine.

I greatly prefer to reality-check things like this against the extant fiction. In some places it can bog things down, but it is still something one should not discount.

The rules may not explicitly say Humans are off the table as an option for Beast Change, but it is pretty easy to infer that, and from my point of view, pretty hard to infer the opposite, and I do not believe "Beast" automatically or even rhetorically includes humans.

[Richard_Chilton]

This has me thinking of the British mini series Jykell.  It's a new take on the Jykell/Hyde thing, involving a descendant of Jykell - or maybe a clone of one - with genetics replacing the potion.

The Hyde in that one was as amoral as a child.  Strong, fast, but lacking life experiences to ground him.  At one point he moans something "I'm supposed to be superman - why can't I do this?".

It's a mini series panted with shades of grey - if you added magic then Harry wouldn't be out of place there.

Richard

[devonapple]

At one point he moans something "I'm supposed to be superman - why can't I do this?".

That was a great miniseries. Damn, I'm tearing up even now thinking about that scene.

[Delmorian]

This has me thinking of the British mini series Jykell.  It's a new take on the Jykell/Hyde thing, involving a descendant of Jykell - or maybe a clone of one - with genetics replacing the potion.

The Hyde in that one was as amoral as a child.  Strong, fast, but lacking life experiences to ground him.  At one point he moans something "I'm supposed to be superman - why can't I do this?".

It's a mini series panted with shades of grey - if you added magic then Harry wouldn't be out of place there.

Richard

Haven't seen that one, how does it stack up to the Sherlock series? A modernization of Sherlock Holmes set in modern time, and echoing/updating lots of quotes and references to the original A.C. Doyle works. Am in love with that series, and cant wait to see what happens next. (they only did three double length episodes for season one)

[BumblingBear]

Despite arguments from the novels irritating people, I just thought of some great cannon to prove that beast change allows change into a human.

(click to show/hide)

The Loup Garou's wolfy gf was a wolf, and could turn into a human.  That is presumably the wolf taking "beast change" to turn into a human.

That said, while I believe it is RAW that a human can turn into a human... it's kind of lame.

So in a campaign I was gming, if someone wanted to take this power to turn into a human, I would require that they change something significant... probably gender :evil:.  Depending on the setting, shockingly neon hair and different colored skin would work too.

::shrug::

[HumAnnoyd]

I made a character that was an Exiled Seraphim who had most of his Divinity muted by his human soul (long story).  I used beast change to model his transition from human to Divine which gave him Strength, Toughness, Speed and a nice pair of wings.  He also had to fight the wrathful nature of his Angelic form which constantly pushed him to punish the sinful.  Which was pretty much everybody.  We didn't even really consider the issues of him being able to communicate since there was already a disadvantage that was commiserate to the lack of speaking and thumbs.  It worked pretty well.   

[ways and means]

Despite arguments from the novels irritating people, I just thought of some great cannon to prove that beast change allows change into a human.

(click to show/hide)

The Loup Garou's wolfy gf was a wolf, and could turn into a human.  That is presumably the wolf taking "beast change" to turn into a human.

That said, while I believe it is RAW that a human can turn into a human... it's kind of lame.

So in a campaign I was gming, if someone wanted to take this power to turn into a human, I would require that they change something significant... probably gender :evil:.  Depending on the setting, shockingly neon hair and different colored skin would work too.

::shrug::

I played a girl who used her unrealised scary magic potential to turn into a psycotic super-powered big brother when ever she was scared. Things didn't go well for her first over-touchy boyfriend.