Beast Change

[Richard_Chilton]

Haven't seen that one, how does it stack up to the Sherlock series? A modernization of Sherlock Holmes set in modern time, and echoing/updating lots of quotes and references to the original A.C. Doyle works. Am in love with that series, and cant wait to see what happens next. (they only did three double length episodes for season one)

It's a complete modern retelling - one that is set in a world where the original happened and some people said "wow - imagine how we can use Hydes".  I can't give many details without spoiling the series (much it involves Jerkyll, his wife, and a few others discovering what's going on) but it was a good series.  As for shades of grey, what is one family's life worth when compared to saving hundreds of millions? And if that's too black and white for you, add the words "For a profit" because no one is going to do all that for free.  Not when there are billions to be made.

Comparing it to the original - the potion is gone and at the start of the show Jerkyll has negotiated some ground rules that Hyde has to follow.


Bringing this back on topic, the transformation is a complete one.  Hyde is taller, heavier, his muscles are more efficient, his mouth is different, his eyes are different colours, he heals faster, he thinks in different ways (sees a problem, solves the problem without knowing how he reached the solution), and at some points he has electro-magnetic control.  He uses that power on computers and in a "induction field" to affect the electrical impulses in the brain to alter what people think they are perceiving.  If the personality wasn't so different (and stable - in his own way) he would be a lot liked a suped up version of the biker lycanthropes from Full Moon.

Alas, there's no way I could stat him out without spoiling the show.  But one on one, the average human has no chance of taking him down.

Richard

[Kerberos]

Despite arguments from the novels irritating people, I just thought of some great cannon to prove that beast change allows change into a human.

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The Loup Garou's wolfy gf was a wolf, and could turn into a human.  That is presumably the wolf taking "beast change" to turn into a human.

That said, while I believe it is RAW that a human can turn into a human... it's kind of lame.

Fool Moon related

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Mechanically there's no difference between a wolf turning into a human and a human turning into a wolf. That's backstory, not mechanics. I don't think you can use that to justify human to human transformations at the same refresh cost. Also she's still turning into a different animal which justifies the skill-shufle. Turning into another human, even if it's a radically different looking human logically provides far less leeway.

So in a campaign I was gming, if someone wanted to take this power to turn into a human, I would require that they change something significant... probably gender :evil:.  Depending on the setting, shockingly neon hair and different colored skin would work too.

::shrug::

I'd probably be inclined to take a harder line than that, but then it depends on the circumstances. If it was being used to get a bunch of free skill point while avoiding any of the inherent drawbacks to turning into a beast that's one thing, if it didn't feel exploitative I'd probably allow it even though I don't think the RAW allows it. The game is clearly meant to be customized by the players if they feel like it.

[Kerberos]

1. I really hate it when people use the novels in this sort of discussion. Just a pet peeve of mine.

It's you privilege to ignore the novels of cause, but I think they provide useful context. As it happens the RPG supports my position as well. Under the wereform template it says that:

"The animal in question isn’t supercharged or innately magical (other than the fact that it has a human intellect kicking around in its  noggin), but with some practice, the shapeshifter can use it as easily as his human form, within the limits of what that animal can do."

In other words if you shapechange into an animal that can't speak you can't speak.

2. I view werewolves not speaking as a compel. If they buy it off, then their inability to speak poses no problem and they get their point across anyway.

Obviously some communication is possible without speaking. I don't think I'd grant a compell for those instances where it doesn't, but YMMV

3. That you cannot change into another human is not a clear fact. It might (or might not) be the best interpretation, but it isn't a clear fact.

4. The wording of True Shapeshifting proves nothing. This is not a mathematical treatise: it's a game rulebook. The terminology can be fuzzy.

TL; DR: This is not a question that has a clear answer. Letting people turn into people isn't a houserule, it's an interpretation of the rules. And your seeming belief that these things are intended as balancing factors for Beast Change is very questionable.

It's a clear fact that it says beast. It's a clear fact that humans don't met the normal definition of beast save when the word is used metaphorically. It's a clear fact that the true shape-shifting ability only a few pages later clearly separates beasts and humanoids and explicitly and separately permits the latter. Is it possible that this is just a gigantic mix-up? Sure, anything is possible, but there's absolutely nothing to indicate it.

[bibliophile20]

Quick question here on the Skill Shuffle trapping itself, actually, making sure I'm getting this right... or if I've been doing it wrong the entire time:

1. Does the shuffle allow for a completely different skill list between the different forms?  I.e. one form having no fists, and the other having high fists?  Or do both forms have to have the skill(s) in question and they are merely swapped around in ranking?

2. Does the skill shuffle occur each time the power is activated, i.e. could a were-form choose to have high stealth after one transformation, but high fists after he changes to human and back again?  Or is a shift between two skill sets that are both locked until a milestone is reached?

[Blackblade]

Quick question here on the Skill Shuffle trapping itself, actually, making sure I'm getting this right... or if I've been doing it wrong the entire time:

1. Does the shuffle allow for a completely different skill list between the different forms?  I.e. one form having no fists, and the other having high fists?  Or do both forms have to have the skill(s) in question and they are merely swapped around in ranking?

2. Does the skill shuffle occur each time the power is activated, i.e. could a were-form choose to have high stealth after one transformation, but high fists after he changes to human and back again?  Or is a shift between two skill sets that are both locked until a milestone is reached?

1.  Yes, though your social skills cannot be higher in your alternate form than your primary one.  Though I would probably allow for a higher intimidate if you turned into a giant wolf.

2.  No, your alternate skill set is locked.  If you want to constantly shuffle them, that's what True Shapeshifting is for. 

[Becq]

One other option would be to have two seperate Beast Forms (ie, buy the power twice, with a different animal and a different set of fixed skills for each).

I'm also assuming you can make at least modest modifications to your Beast Form skill list from time to time, probably through the use of the milestone system.

[ways and means]

I presume your beast form levels up like you do, so you are just running two different skill lists

[Delmorian]

Maybe what we need to do is cobble together a new rule/power, similar to beast transformation, that would account for two consciousnesses occupying one body. Only available to humans, and including thing Like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Call it Alter Ego, and give it several levels to choose from.

One where the body shares some portion of the same skills and all the same physical state, and is closer to MPD, but with out the insanity (we hope). This would work for Toes in the Water games.

Another where an actual Physical transformation occures, meaning changing anything physical or mental and would be more obvious to non initiated in "the weird" this would include stuff like Ranma1/2 or low power Magical Girl transformations. These would work good for waste deep or neck deep games.

A third where a "average mortal" has a serious Powerhouse that he can call on, like early Thor comics, or the Hulk. Another example would be buffy's friend, who was a channel for Glory the hell goddess.

[Becq]

Maybe what we need to do is cobble together a new rule/power, similar to beast transformation, that would account for two consciousnesses occupying one body. Only available to humans, and including thing Like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Call it Alter Ego, and give it several levels to choose from.

Here's a simple way to houserule the most extreme version of this (that is, the less controllable MPD version):

* Make two complete characters.  They can be as similar as appropriate for the character concept, or that can have completely different aspects, skills, and powers, within the guidelines below.
* Each of the two characters must have a High Concept that encompasses both characters.  For example, one might have "Dual-souled <insert first description>" and the other "Dual-souled <insert second description>".
* If either character has aspects that reflect social flaws (for example, enmities, or opinions (good or bad) of other people toward the character), those aspects must be reflected on both character sheets without a good reason the social stigma changes.  For example, if the two 'forms' have completely different appearances -- in which case one or both characters would need a power that allows them to alter their form, possibly in an uncontrolled way.
* In play, the forms are changed via compels on the High Concept.  The GM can compel the change when appropriate (for example due to stress), with the player being allowed to buy off the compel as normal.  Note that as with other compels, Fate is granted only if the change complicates the character’s life.
* As an option for characters who have some reasonable amount of control over their change, the player might be able to invoke their high concept to force a change.  If appropriate, this can prompt escalation if the GM decides that the current soul might resist.
* When a change does occur, use the ‘mid-session power upgrades’ rules on YS92 to deal with refresh imbalances.  Note that the character might have to spend Fate (and/or accept free compels) when changing to a more powerful form, even if compelled to do so.  That Fate will be ‘returned’ when the next change occurs, of course.
Keep in mind that to maintain balance, the character shouldn’t be allowed to simply change forms at leisure; if so this would be potentially overpowered.  This sort of house-ruled template should be used with extreme caution.

[ways and means]

Wouldn't beast change and modular abilities work for this more simply

[Richard_Chilton]

A slightly modified version (or versions) of Beast Change would work, but the rules as written do not seem to allow for a human/human change.

Having two character sheets - one for the brilliant scientist Bruce Banner (who has all sorts of academic stunts) and one for the green skinned Hulk (who has powers) - would be the best way of handling total changes like that - with both sheets having "change to another human" power to reflect that you have access to two sets of skills/powers while normal PCs only have one.  That would probably cost the same as Beast Change.

Then again, having a normal guy who doesn't have much in the way of powers or stunts unless he changes (maybe by saying the word Shazam!) could be made another way.  Play balance wise, if powers are just being added (as opposed to skills shifted) then it wouldn't be any different from making a supernatural and giving it Human Form [+1].

And if a "change to another human" was used, it would be even cheaper to make it an Item of Power (say a magic ring that works when you say Shazam!) because you'd probably end up with a +2 discount on the item - +1 after paying for "change to another human" which would be the same as taking Human Form.

Richard

[ways and means]

It is very easy to argue that both the hulk and hyde aren't really human they and because they behave very bestially then it is apropriate to Beast Change for them.

[Becq]

Wouldn't beast change and modular abilities work for this more simply

Only for powers and skills.  If you want a totally different personality (Jekyll and Hyde), I'd expect you'd want different aspects, too.

For example, you might have a calm, mild-mannered 'main ego' who, in times of stress, 'wolfs out'.  (Not necessarily a wolf-form, but something somewhat more monstrous.)  When wandering down a dark alley and assaulted by thugs, wolfing out might be a benefit.  Accepting a compel to do so when being hen-picked in a meeting of the local PTA might not be so good, especially when followed by a compel of the "I see REEEED!" aspect that the 'monster' form has...

Other than the aspects, another main difference is that this sort of template could allow for two forms that BOTH have (different) powers.  For example, I recall a recent thread regarding an insane changeling bad guy, one idea of which was to have the character be a mix of two Fae types, with personalities that weren't aware of each other.  Beast Change assumes that the non-beast form is either mundane, or has powers bought with 'leftover' refresh.

Again, there's a lot of potential for abuse ... but also potential for a very interesting character, if handled well by the GM and player.