Spell Maneuvers

[Rel Fexive]

Power: Varies; typical is 4 shifts—3 for effect plus 1 for additional duration
Control: Roll Discipline plus appropriate specializations and focus items
Duration: One scene
Opposed by: Target’s Athletics
Effect: If the spell hits, the target has the sticky Bound in Place temporary aspect applied.

1 shift used for duration.  Also, roll Discipline to target, resisted by Athletics.


End result? Rote spell performing a manoeuvre - sorry, maneuver - requires a Discipline roll to 'hit' the target.  If a hit is achieved, the full force of the power used is applied - if enough power is used to match or beat the resisting skill, the manoeuvre - sorry, maneuver - is successful.

[arentol]

So although the duration of the entanglement spell is "one scene" it can be removed if the target takes an exchange to roll an athletics maneuver to remove it right? If spell maneuvers are just like regular maneuvers then this should be the case right?

If not, then where is this difference between regular maneuvers and spell maneuvers mentioned in the book?

If so, then what about something that isn't obviously physically removable, like the entropy magic based "Bad Luck" maneuver, which also lasts one scene. Can a normal human take an exchange to try and remove this? If so how? What about a wizard? What if the person casting it put a bunch of shifts into it and extended the duration to "a few weeks"? What if it was their death curse and it is supposed to last for a decade? Seems kind of lame I spend a month preparing to curse you with bad luck and you shrug it off with a quick roll. Not that I am complaining, because I think maneuver based curses would be way overpowered without this ability, but it doesn't seem to jive with the way some of the curses in the book are detailed, like the full on entropy one.

[Tsunami]

So although the duration of the entanglement spell is "one scene" it can be removed if the target takes an exchange to roll an athletics maneuver to remove it right? If spell maneuvers are just like regular maneuvers then this should be the case right?

If not, then where is this difference between regular maneuvers and spell maneuvers mentioned in the book?

If so, then what about something that isn't obviously physically removable, like the entropy magic based "Bad Luck" maneuver, which also lasts one scene. Can a normal human take an exchange to try and remove this? If so how? What about a wizard? What if the person casting it put a bunch of shifts into it and extended the duration to "a few weeks"? What if it was their death curse and it is supposed to last for a decade? Seems kind of lame I spend a month preparing to curse you with bad luck and you shrug it off with a quick roll. Not that I am complaining, because I think maneuver based curses would be way overpowered without this ability, but it doesn't seem to jive with the way some of the curses in the book are detailed, like the full on entropy one.

I'd say that's pretty much the difference between using shifts to increase duration and using the sticky aspect rules.
Sticky aspects can be removed by anyone, using a maneuver of their own.
Spells with extended duration, especially curses like the entropy curse, can't. They require some form of counter magic to remove.

[Rel Fexive]

So although the duration of the entanglement spell is "one scene" it can be removed if the target takes an exchange to roll an athletics maneuver to remove it right? If spell maneuvers are just like regular maneuvers then this should be the case right?

If not, then where is this difference between regular maneuvers and spell maneuvers mentioned in the book?

The entanglement aspect is a regular sticky aspect so can be removed with another manoeuvre.  The duration just indicates how long it sticks around before disappearing on its own.

[crusher_bob]

Hmm, how about this interpretation:

When you are the target of a magical maneuver, you generally have 2 defensive options: can can attempt to avoid the maneuver itself (just like you would any other attack) or you may attempt to resist the maneuver directly, which may allow you to use a different skill.

If you fail at whichever defensive option you choose, you are effected by the maneuver.  The placed aspect will generally stay for the duration of a scene, unless you make a maneuver yourself (generally, difficulty 3) to remove it.

Additional duration: when a maneuver spell with additional duration effects you, are are unable to attempt to remove the forced aspect until the natural duration of the spell expires.

Example:
Wizard bob throws the spell "Blinding Light, power 4, duration one, resisted with alertness" at a ghoul. 
Bob rolls a discipline result of 5, enough to control the spell. 
The ghoul has the choice of resisting the maneuver with either its alertness (Good) vs the power of the maneuver (4) or it's athletics (Superb, due to speed) vs the to hit roll of the maneuver (5).  It chooses to resist with Athletics, since the odds are better. 
The ghoul fails the roll, and gets the aspect blinded. 
Normally, the ghoul could attempt to remove this aspect with an alertness roll in the next exchange, but the added duration of the maneuver means it is unable to make the attempt until the exchange after that, when the spell duration will have ended.

[edit]
This still isn't too great, since you don't have to pay stress for regular maneuvers...
For example, I could use fists (or something) to inflict sand in the eyes.  You only have one skill option when defending against it, and I don't have to pay any stress to do that.

So an alternative is you resist the power of the maneuver directly with the appropriate skill, and the duration rule (above) is the advantage you get in exchange for paying stress to get the spell.

So the example would be:
Wizard Bob throws the spell "Blinding Light, power 4, duration one, resisted with alertness" at a ghoul. 
Bob rolls a discipline result of 5, enough to control the spell. 
The ghoul resists the power maneuver (4) with its alertness (Good)
The ghoul fails the roll, and gets the aspect blinded. 
Normally, the ghoul could attempt to remove this aspect with an alertness roll in the next exchange, but the added duration of the maneuver means it is unable to make the attempt until the exchange after that, when the spell duration will have ended.

So the advantages of spell based maneuvers are:
1 You generally get to choose the resistance skill, which means you can try to hit your opponent in a weak spot.
2 If you have enough power, you can make sure the aspect you stick them with will stick around for a while.

And skill based maneuvers, you don't have to pay stress for.

The disadvantage of this solution is that there is no allowance for magical blocks, which you would expect to block magical maneuvers...

[Tush Hog]

I would like a little clarification on the original question as well. Why would Evan want to draw up 6 shifts of Power to generate a maneuver that gets 3 extra rounds of persistence if a 4 shift maneuver would result in a sticky aspect on the scene?

Do spell maneuvers not become sticky with a one over the shift requirement?