Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!

[DFJunkie]

I like that sort of thing myself. 

I wasn't saying the crowd would be used up, but that the stress point would be.  It isn't that I don't like the concept, but since you have to assume NPCs are at least partially aware of game concepts like stress (Harry can't stop talking about how tired spellcasting makes him) that they'd avoid less efficient forms of attack.

If anything the crowd surge would be a much more effective block, something for a hasty getaway rather than a direct physical attack.

[devonapple]

There seem to me to be two desired effects:

1. A clever and narratively compelling way of causing stress/blocking/etc. an opponent.
2. A quick way to set up a situation in which an opponent is taking stress/being blocked by multiple entities which must be dealt with separately - not to mention delicately so as to not violate a Law of Magic.

I think the *intent* of the original challenge was to replicate option 2. Which is not to say that I believe option 1 to be undesirable.

Option 2, to get the full desired effect, would require EvoThaum (presumably by Sponsored Magic), and a lot of shifts. A Thaumaturgy Ritual *could* be set up ahead of time to do something similar (and has been done in the fiction), but it would have to target something which would sympathetically link everyone in the bar/restaurant/etc. to the ritual.

An in-between option would be to use EvoThaum to produce a series of Maneuvers to place multiple instances of the sticky Aspect "Ensorcelled Minion" which could be free-tagged to supplement other actions, including:

Invoke for a bonus to damage, explained as the minion helping make the opponent more vulnerable
Invoke to make it possible for the Villain to place a Block using Presence, explained as the minions doing to work.
Invoke as a Compel against a Wizard's high concept, forcing the Wizard to choose between harming a mortal and letting the villain go.

This would reflect a temporary plot effect that would not last beyond the scene.

[sinker]

Seems to me the original intent was to create A) a NPC Warlock villain, so lawbreaking really isn't an issue nor is strict RAW, and B) to model mind control with evocation. I was simply suggesting that you skip the creation of the thralls and jump right to the point that matters, I.E. the conflict between the PCs and the bad guy. But if he wants to have the PCs stumble onto this ritual midway through then that's something else.

[admiralducksauce]

I like the one-two punch of softening up a crowd with Evocation and then laying a compellable aspect on them with a (now greatly reduced complexity) Thaumaturgy ritual - whether that ritual is done normally or at Evo speed through Sponsored magic isn't so important to me at the moment.  In this way it's a lot like the Mind Fog spell in the book.

In play, of course if the Warlock needs minions offscreen, he can just have them.  I 1) wanted to double check such a thing was possible so as to have an excuse ready for "How did this bastard turn the whole town on us?" and 2) what it'd realistically take to do such a spell in combat.  Having minions ready to go for the PCs is one thing.  Being caught offguard and having to flee to somewhere there are crowds, trying to turn them into fodder to cover your escape on the fly?  That's entirely different.... and it sounds like it'd be a lot easier to just give him Outsider magic or Kemmler-vision.

I also am okay with changing a High Aspect being done one-on-one.  With that in mind, that options seems much more useful for people like the mayor, the town sheriff, and a threat to any PCs who might get captured by this guy.  Sometimes those kind of changes to your character are a more terrifying threat than death.

As for using "throngs of people" as the flavor description for an attack or block evocation, I think that's cool.  I think it'd be more like "the strip mall-goers suddenly reach out for you, grabbing at you and holding you back, then, just as suddenly, they relent and look around confused."  Like the Warlock slapped 'em with a quick "Stop those guys!" directive but didn't make it stick.

[stitchy1503]

I was always under the impression that you could make very rough thralls with Evocation, renfields are spose to be made by beating the persons brains into submission, that sounds very evocationy. Also I wonder why the book relates corpsetakers mind attacks to kemmlerite necromancy...psychomancy really has nothing to do with necromancy.

[admiralducksauce]

I think it's because Corpse-Taker was a Kemmlerite, so you figure maybe her mind attacks are part of that forbidden lore.  It also makes sense from a POV if you think like controlling a corpse is only a few steps from controlling a living person.  It's thematically similar enough to me that I personally didn't think it was weird either in the novel or to read that in the rules about Sponsored magic examples.

[ways and means]

kemmlerite necromancy is necromancy created by kemmler, kemmler being kemmler if it is magic and against the rules of magic he probably used it and took it further than anyone had done before.

[DFJunkie]

I think it's because Corpse-Taker was a Kemmlerite, so you figure maybe her mind attacks are part of that forbidden lore.

Second.  The fact that Kemmler himself was killed a few times would suggest that he had mastered the body switching trick that Corpsetaker used, probably to a greater extent even.  However, I don't think that Corpsetaker's mental attack on Harry was necessarily derived from Kemmlerian Necromancy.  It was a direct mental attack, albeit a particularly powerful and adroit one.  Yes, there's a bit about how Corpsetaker drew in power in a way Harry was unfamiliar with, but I'm pretty sure all of its magic was dark and spooky at that point.

[Belial666]

Kemmlerian Necromancy specifically includes doing psychomancy at the speed of Evocation. So those mindswitch spells that were far too complex/powerful magic for Evocation and too fast for Thaumaturgy? Kemmlerian Necromancy.

[DFJunkie]

Kemmlerian Necromancy specifically includes doing psychomancy at the speed of Evocation. So those mindswitch spells that were far too complex/powerful magic for Evocation and too fast for Thaumaturgy? Kemmlerian Necromancy.

Absolutely.  My point is just that we needn't lean so hard on the Kemmlerites, it's definitely possible to fuck with people's heads with plain ol' vanilla Evocation.

[Sanctaphrax]

@DFJunkie:

The word "definitely" has no place in that sentence.

The issue of whether or not evocation can be used to inflict mental stress is often argued around here. The primary concerns are balance and thematics.

I can rustle up some links if you want.

[DFJunkie]

The word "definitely" has no place in that sentence.

The issue of whether or not evocation can be used to inflict mental stress is often argued around here. The primary concerns are balance and thematics.

Meh?  Since when is that even a question?  It might be unbalanced but it definitely seems doable.  Of course it seems like a pretty obvious 3rd law violation, so if it's targeting a human here comes some Lawbreaker, and if a Warden sees you do it they'll probably execute you on suspicion.

[Sanctaphrax]

It is unquestionably a question.

People wouldn't argue so much over it if it were not.

Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean that no other view is valid.

[UmbraLux]

Have to agree with DFJunkie on evocation.  Look to Eastern Elemental descriptions if you need inspiration, each has a specific emotion assigned.  Beyond manipulating emotion, mental veils seem as obvious as visual and maneuvers are even simpler.

[ways and means]

I think there is a balance question but from the books it is shown that normal non-sponsored evocation can do mental stress for example

(click to show/hide)

mollys mindhacking of her girlfriends boyfriend (which was done in the style of evocation and not as a ritual) obviously dealt mental stress clearly Molly isn't a sponsored magician so this means that evocation even in the hands of an untrained girl can be used for compulsions and other mental attacks

.