Author Topic: Catch Check, or the Tangled Web of D&D 3.x Defense Powers  (Read 2171 times)

Offline devonapple

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Catch Check, or the Tangled Web of D&D 3.x Defense Powers
« on: April 06, 2011, 04:46:00 AM »
I have a peculiar set of demonic toughness powers which I think are fairly priced as follows, but I'm open to outside evaluation:

-2   Inhuman Recovery
-4   Supernatural Toughness
+3   The Catch: only works against mortal magic, any fire and any electricity.

Having a Catch that only works against mortal magic has consistently been a +5 discount in the books. Adding fire and electricity to the mix could bring that down by 1 or 2. I've opted for 2.

Also, the original D&D 3.x defenses I'm trying to model are:
Damage Reduction 5/+2
Spell Resistance 20
Electricity and Fire Resistance

I think DR 5/+2 was a small enough amount that the armor to apply would be sufficient.

Unfortunately, a Stacked Catch is only available when a monster has actually purchased Physical Immunity.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 05:35:33 AM by devonapple »
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Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Catch Check, or the Tangled Web of D&D 3.x Defense Powers
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2011, 05:20:29 AM »
It looks ok to me.

Plus, I've always been a big fan of common sense over RAW.

As such, I would even allow a catch for speed and strength powers....

In some ways, running water is already a catch for mortal magic.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Catch Check, or the Tangled Web of D&D 3.x Defense Powers
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2011, 05:39:06 AM »
As such, I would even allow a catch for speed and strength powers....

I am seeing the value of putting limits on non-Toughness powers, as seen in the Djok Demon over in the resources thread.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
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That I’m positive are not even mine"

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Offline sinker

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Re: Catch Check, or the Tangled Web of D&D 3.x Defense Powers
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2011, 07:12:32 AM »
You could apply the same logic that the catches normally have. Are the toughness powers limited to one thing? Not technically, but it is fairly limited so I might go with a +1 on that (instead of the normal +2). Is the catch common. Anything that isn't magic, fire, or lightning is pretty common so +2. How easily is the catch discovered? I'm sure you have the answer to that one but somewhere between +0 and +2. So all in all a +3-5 catch?

Offline Belial666

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Re: Catch Check, or the Tangled Web of D&D 3.x Defense Powers
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2011, 10:51:47 AM »
Quote
Damage Reduction 5/+2
Armor 1 means in DFRPG that fists and knives that hit you but don't score an exceptional blow are going to deal no damage. It is on par with DnD damage reduction enough to absorb all the weapon damage of light one-handed weapons such as daggers - so DR at least 5, if you factor in weapon bonuses. So Inhuman Toughness is what you are looking for here. A catch of "enchanted weapons" would be a literal analogue as a catch.

Quote
Spell Resistance 20
Spell resistance of any level in DnD usually means that the average wizard (no special SR conutermeasures or CL boosts) of a level equal to the creature's CR will fail his SR check half the time. Now, in Dresden Files average magic attack rolls tend to be 1 point above good enemy defenses per 4 or so refresh. To equalize (and thus get 50% failure rate), we need something that boosts your defenses. A power costing -1 refresh per point of bonus vs magic is a fair cost.. Since you are looking at 20 SR, it means an 8th level creature or roughly a 12-refresh creature in my experience. So this power is fairly close;
[-3] Spell Resistance: Your own body is resistant to magic. Against direct magical effects, you get a +3 to any defense rolls.

Quote
Electricity and Fire Resistance
You are already resistant to all types of damage via toughness. Since most DnD resistances on creatures are 10 or less, a +1 armor vs Fire and Lightning is what you're looking for. A stunt or -1 refresh power is enough for that;
[-1] Energy Resistance: against direct energy attacks such as fire and lightning your armor is treated as 1 point higher.

Offline ways and means

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Re: Catch Check, or the Tangled Web of D&D 3.x Defense Powers
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2011, 11:13:42 AM »
Spell resistance of any level in DnD usually means that the average wizard (no special SR conutermeasures or CL boosts) of a level equal to the creature's CR will fail his SR check half the time. Now, in Dresden Files average magic attack rolls tend to be 1 point above good enemy defenses per 4 or so refresh. To equalize (and thus get 50% failure rate), we need something that boosts your defenses. A power costing -1 refresh per point of bonus vs magic is a fair cost.. Since you are looking at 20 SR, it means an 8th level creature or roughly a 12-refresh creature in my experience. So this power is fairly close;
[-3] Spell Resistance: Your own body is resistant to magic. Against direct magical effects, you get a +3 to any defense rolls.

Spell resistance seems over priced when you could justify having +2 defence against only magic as a strong stunt.  I would probably use
Magical Evasion- You are well versed in dodging arcane forces +2 to all athletics checks used to dodge magic.

Or a homebrew Power
Spell Resistance -2: You can use endurance +2 to defend against magic
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Offline Becq

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Re: Catch Check, or the Tangled Web of D&D 3.x Defense Powers
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2011, 06:44:15 PM »
The Stacked Catch stuff is meant to only apply to cases where there is overlap between Toughness powers and Immunity powers, and gives a discount to the immunity to balance out the fact that the creature was already resistant.  However, while 'The Catch' is usually presented as an exception to Toughness powers, the first bullet point on YS185 lets you use The Catch to create a limited Toughness Power:

"If your abilities only protect you against something specific, you get a +2 discount.  If they protect you against everything except something specific, you get nothing."

Most Catches use the latter half of that for the baseline, then add modifiers based on accessibility and knowledge from the subsequent bullet points, but you'd be starting with a base of +2 since the power works only against "certain forms of energy, including mortal magic, electricity, and fire".  You can't get anything from the accessibilty discount, since that is for 'bypass' Catches.  You might get additional discount from the knowledge category, but probably only if the power you are creating is a racial/archetypical power of some sort that could be researched.

As to the ideas for Spell Resistance powers, I think that they should actually be bumped up a bit in power.  Consider that the Acrobat stunt grants a +1 to defense against ranged attacks (which is probably a more common attack group than spells), and against falls as well.  And Powers, since they void the Pure Human bonus, are supposed to be slightly better than stunts.  So I'd suggest that the spell resistance either grant refresh cost + 1 bonus to magic defense rolls, or grant refresh cost as a bonus to magic defense rolls and allow the character (once per scene) to spend a Fate point to gain an additional +3.

Offline Belial666

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Re: Catch Check, or the Tangled Web of D&D 3.x Defense Powers
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2011, 07:08:35 PM »
The stunts you are mentioning offer a bonus to athletics vs magic. Spell resistance offers a bonus vs magic in general, regardless of whether the spell is resisted by athletics, endurance, discipline or might.

Offline sinker

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Re: Catch Check, or the Tangled Web of D&D 3.x Defense Powers
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2011, 05:09:52 PM »
You can't get anything from the accessibilty discount, since that is for 'bypass' Catches.

I don't really understand why you would think this wouldn't apply. There's no point where the books state that this only applies to specific catches. It's all about how easily your toughness is bypassed. Since your toughness is bypassed by everything that isn't fire, electricity or magic one would get a +2 on this one. Consider when the book is talking about immunity to fire. YS187:

Quote
In addition, he has physical immunity
to damage from any kind of fire. The Catch
is that it only applies to attacks with fire.
Normally, this would give a rebate of +5:
+2 for protecting against only one specific
thing, +2 because “not fire” is easy to come
by
, and +1 because research would normally
uncover it.

So in theory he should get +2, because his catch (everything that isn't fire, magic, or electricity) is extraordinarily easy to come by.