A Non-Evil Denarian?

[zaq.hack]

Another approach:

A "shadow" may have Free Will. As "malleable" as the stuff which contains the shadow, or some such line. This is not defined explicitly, but I would say the longer the "copy" lived in the host, the more chance of straying from the original.

A Denarian is evil. While an interesting plot point akin to something in a Simon R Green novel, there has to be a line, somewhere. To make a Denarian change sides would be messing with a precious few artifacts (30) in a way that would not normally make sense. The Swords of the Cross "can't be used for evil" or they are unmade. A Denarian that reaches redemption ... I would similarly "unmake" and remove from the world (re-ascend?).

A character who is living with a "demonic copilot" could be persuasive enough to overcome the shadow. However ... the forces of darkness are always willing to help, and the more a player drew upon that power, the more I would compel them in morally gray situations.

[DFJunkie]

If you're saying that the Fallen are evil and will remain so I agree wholeheartedly.  It's a settled fact that they gain power from suffering and misery, and seek to use that power to overthrow the order of the universe.  There's really no room for compromise there.

However, the Fallen are not the Denarians.  The Order of the Blackened Denarius is comprised of those men and women who bear the coins.  Every one of them is capable, in theory, of giving up their coin and repenting the evil they've done.

[Compass Rose]

IIRC, there are cases where the Fallen have just bulled ahead and taken over the Denarian (the host who picked up their coin) and thus, the human who once occupied that body has no say whatsoever in the actions taken after he/she has been subjugated. Therefore, just because the human host WANTS to not be evil, or has plans to use the Fallen's powers for good, doesn't mean that's what is going to happen once they accept becoming a host.

[DFJunkie]

Yeah, Ursiel's host definitely seemed to be pretty well dominated, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have asserted control and given up the coin had he believed he was capable of doing so and possessed the Conviction to make it stick.  We don't really know what happened between the Yukon gold rush and that night in a Chicago alley, but it probably involved Ursiel inflicting unbearable mental agony on Rasmussen over the course of years until it got to the point where the host believed he no longer had control.  

In Ursiel's case I doubt there was ever a chance for his host to effect some good, or at least non-evil, with the power of the coin.  Over the course of the books various characters expand on the tactics employed by the various Fallen to control their hosts.  Some are interested in a partnership, others prefer to simply overwhelm and dominate the coin bearer.  If a person comes into possession of one of the subtler Fallen's coins it would probably be possible to do some good in the short run. 

[Richard_Chilton]

I can see a Denarian who doesn't think he is evil.  One that uses his powers for the general good.  Saving lives, making the world a better place...

And seeing things that way because he doesn't have the foresight of Galadriel.  Yes, that's a LotR reference.  When offered the one ring Galadriel was tempted because she knew she could use it for good, but she would slowly slide down the slope until the Dark Lady Galadriel replaced the Dark Lord Sauron as the tyrant of Middle Earth.

When she chose not to take the ring, she knew she was sealing her people's fate.  That they would diminish and leave their beloved woods to go West.

But she was very wise woman.  If you touched a coin and refused the offers of the Fallen, would you change your mind to save a child's life? Especially if you had "beaten it down"? And the Fallen would give you all the power to do good, knowing that when you succumbed to the power you would be bringing a lot good people down with you.

But a reformed Fallen has no place in the canon - they've had 2000 years for mortals to try to reform them and nothing's worked yet.

Richard

[Marganma]

Well,

(click to show/hide)

Sanya used to be a member of the Order of the Denarius, didnīt he? Now heīs a Knight of the Cross, 

so redemption is certainly possible for a human being that renounced the coin.
And maybe some holder might be the dominant partner (or at least the clever one) and use the demon for the greater good. Or so he thinks. But do the ends justify the means?

A demon seeking redemption doesnīt really seem appropiate in the Dresdenverse, but if it works for you, go ahead. Or maybe the demon just doesnīt want to destroy the earth and the human race - that might be a very strange bedfellow in fighting world-ending or humanity-destroying fiends.

[ZMiles]

Or possibly a Denarian wants to do something he (or DF God) would see as evil but the carrier or player wouldn't. Suppose a Denarian says, "That God fellow seems to want to be worshipped, so to fight him I'll work on stopping people from wanting to worship." Perhaps the Denarian promotes policies that lead to a more secularized society, or even perhaps promotes philanthropic organizations that crowd out those run by the Church. He might see it as a victory if a church community center closed due to a secular (or a heretical/apostate/other faith) organization crowding them out, even if it was better at helping humans. Such a Denarian could perhaps be evil from the 'opposed to God' perspective, but might not be considered evil from a human perspective.

[kamilion]

For clarification, my arguments earlier were primarily using the term "denarian" to refer to the Fallen in the coin, rather than the symbiotic organism created from a mortal + coin situation. So if you go back and replace Denarian with "Coin-Bound Fallen" in all my posts, it would make more sense, I suppose.

Yes, I definitely think a Denarian coin-bearer could be good, at least in the short term, but I think a Denarian spirit (the Fallen, specifically) could at best be a slightly sympathetic character on the path of evil.

Interesting semi-side note, there is nothing in the Bible about angels getting redemption. That bit is strictly for the humans, who were created with freedom of choice. Then again, it's an interesting conundrum as to how the angels were created to serve, without choice, yet seemed pretty good at choosing to rebel. Hrm.

[TheMouse]

While I think it's pretty inevitable that one of the Fallen would be evil, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are maliciously evil.

See, the Fallen are caught in a bad place. They've missed their chance to serve in Heaven forever and always. Now they're stuck with the choice of ending up in the Abyss forever, or trying to beat the system. They don't necessarily need to want to do terrible things to humanity, but could simply be in the position that they have to do such things in order to survive.

So the Denarian created by the union of such a Fallen and a human host might not actually be a terrible person every moment of every day. They just have to do certain things to try to bring about a positive outcome for themselves. This periodically requires the slaughter of innocents, but that doesn't have to be the daily MO.

Interesting semi-side note, there is nothing in the Bible about angels getting redemption. That bit is strictly for the humans, who were created with freedom of choice.

Yeah, this is a common topic when angels and demons are involved. There's a pretty good rant on exactly this topic by an angel in the movie Dogma.

[Viatos]

It IS interesting, isn't? That a race of servants could be capable of falling at all? Perhaps there's more going on then meets the eye - perhaps the White God does, indeed, have a Plan at work, say to breed a champion not of Heaven or Hell but of humanity, to shield them in the coming age - the one where Downbelow and Heaven finally start scrapping for keeps. Perhaps this champion has no relation to the White God's endless war for dominion over mortal souls, but is instead a contingency plan, a shield to be set against the worst - Downbelow's victory, an incursion from Outside, or some unforeseen upheaval where, say, Faerie decides that ganking God is in its best interests.

So, take an angel, a being of perfect virtue, and tear something in it; leave a weak spot, an open wound into which corruption can slither, driving it to Fall with the rest already corrupted (as to how that happens, who knows? Maybe there's an even bigger Plan. Or maybe the Morningstar WASN'T an angel - maybe it was an Outsider with the same thematics as the White God, cast down and inverted, seriously pissed off and looking to tear down everything the big guy wants to build up). Let it drown in darkness, see the worst of everything, slide its essence into a tarnished silver coin so that it can make war against everything it was made to serve and defend.

But leave a secret in its heart: the power to heal that torn spiritual ligament, even as warped and stretched as it has become, just as mortal muscle strengthens. All it needs is the faith to restore it, stronger and better then before - but of course, faith is not something the Fallen have much access to. So let it wander from host to host, reaping death and suffering, always feeling faintly that something is missing - until it finds a bearer unlike any before, one with the Conviction and Discipline to stand against its vast evil, to shine a light through that obfuscating shadow, right to the forgotten core of it.

It'll be a harrowing journey from there to redemption, but what's a PC without angst and long background arcs?

[kamilion]

It'll be a harrowing journey from there to redemption, but what's a PC without angst and long background arcs?

You know, I think that would actually be a really interesting character. A little demon within, maybe set it up a little like a changeling... hmm... yeah, that could be fun. I'm going to have to work something up for that, even if it's only as an NPC.

[hank the ancient]

If we're talking mythology, Denarians aren't the first, second or possibly even last of group of the fallen angels. First lucifer's crew was thrown out, then the ophanim incident, & denarians became a group around the time of the crucifiction. More angels could have been thrown out since then. So maybe an angel that's really an ok guy gets in trouble, doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, is thrown out, then finds a human host in a manner somewhat reminiscent of the denarians.

[DFJunkie]

Well, the Fallen inside the coins (I'm sorry to flog this, but there's a distinction) are probably from Lucifer's original crew.  I forget when it's brought up, but the 30 angels that got to go play in the mortal world are all ones that Lucifer was at least nervous about as potential threats to him.  My interpretation was that since the White God exercised his power during the crucifixion Lucifer was able to respond.

Oh, and Anduriel, Nic's Fallen, was Lucifer's battle captain during the fall (close to a direct quote from Father Forthill I think).

[kamilion]

This is my outline for the denarian-seeking-redemption idea sparked earlier by Viatos. The skills, powers, and stunts could be shifted around pretty easily, I'd say, I just tossed some together.

High Concept: Denarian Biker Seeking Redemption
Trouble: Slippery Slope
Aspects: I Can Do Bad By Myself; Mad Wrench Is Mad With A Wrench; Knowledge Of Hell At My Command; Long, Hard Road; O.F.F.O - Outlaw Forever, Forever Outlaw

Skills:
Superb: (2) Craftsmanship, Fists
Great: (2) Driving, Intimidation
Good: (2) Conviction, Endurance
Fair: (3) Discipline, Athletics, Lore
Average: (5) Might, Guns, Lore, Resources, Weapons

Powers:
(-1) Demonic Copilot
(-2) Inhuman Recovery
(+1) The Catch: Swords of the Cross
(-6) Modular Abilities (4 Refresh worth)

Stunts:
(Craftsmanship) Bike Mechanic: +2 on Craftsmanship whenever dealing with a motorcycle or other bike, +1 on other personal vehicles (boats, cars, trucks, small aircraft).

Power Level: Submerged
Total Refresh: 1

------

Background: Son of rural farmers, raised in southern Illinois on a soybean farm. The farm eventually went under and was bought by an agricultural corporation. The family lost everything and ended up living poor in Chicago. Though he was intelligent, he did poorly in school due to discipline and anger issues. He eventually dropped out of school and went to work as a mechanic. It wasn't long before his talent fixing motorcycles go him involved with the Outlaws MC "one-percenter" outlaw motorcycle gang, where his instinct with mechanical things, impressive strength and durability, and disregard for rules served him well.

"I Can Do Bad By Myself"

Rising Conflict: Descended into an orgy of violence, sex, and drugs, becoming so vicious he was called Mad Wrench (for his trademark of beating offenders with a 2 ft. wrench and his ability to fix his constantly breaking down bike) and placed into the SS, the Outlaw MC's squad of killers and enforcers. It also served to handle any "wierd stuff" the gang would run into, masking it behind the other violence regularly committed by them. During a conflict with RCVs, his natural ferocity and rage were noticed by the captain of the SS, Lil'Satan. He was taken as Lil'Satan's protege and eventually inducted into the Red Skulls, a secret society supposedly dedicated to destroying supernatural threats, but truly serving as Lil'Satan's personal loyalists. As part of his induction in the Red Skulls, he was granted the token of membership - a tarnished silver coin.

"Mad Wrench is Mad With A Wrench"

First Story: Too independent to be submerged under the Fallen Guziel, he was still heavily influenced, like being permanently affected by supernatural PCP. Over the course of several years, he led a band of the SS in cleaning out a nest of RCV (connected to the ones mentioned previously) who had infiltrated the Chicago Outfit (mafia). He truly came into his own, the knowledge of Guziel and the power of the Fallen allowing him to demolish the RCV infestation.

"Knowledge Of Hell At My Command"

Guest Star: Preacher-Man 10 years passed, and Wrench became the 2nd in command of the SS, he and Lil'Satan ruling their own personal feifdom within the Outlaws. Lil'Satan implemented his plan, attempting to take over the mainstream Outlaws, starting with the assassination of their leadership, but Preacher-Man (a fellow Outlaw, but deeply faithful) interfered, the power of his Faith staggering the Fallen. Fully himself for the first time in many years, Wrench fled, finding himself in the poor, rundown neighborhood of his childhood, at his elderly parents' door. His parents were terrified of him, and his rage flared, ending in their deaths. Stricken, broken, he raged against his own downfall and the Fallen in his mind, who for the briefest of moments, expressed sorrow. Holy Man arrived with a few members of the SS; Wrench begged forgiveness, vowing to earn redemption. Rather than cast aside the coin, he seize\ds upon the brief moment of remorse, determined to redeem not only himself, but Guziel as well.

"Long, Hard Road"

Guest Star Redux: Smiley Wrench and Preach systematically set about destroying the Red Skull members of the Outlaw MC, aided by certain in-the-know members. Their pursuit of Lil'Satan took them to St. Louis, where the last of the Red Skulls were slain with the help of a former SS biker and RCV Infected, Smiley. Lil'Satan's coin was encased in concrete and sank beneath the Mississippi. Rather than return to the main club, Wrench, Preach, and Smiley received permission to open a new chapter, which Wrench dedicated to hunting down the supernatural (and sometimes mundane) predators. He hopes to do enough good to wash the blood from his hands, but he's still an Outlaw at heart, loyal to the only family he has left.

"O.F.F.O - Outlaw Forever, Forever Outlaw"

Thoughts?

Damn, now I have to start a new thread to make up a monster-hunting outlaw biker gang in St. Louis. Heh.

[Becq]

Interesting character.  First off, a minor point: "The Catch: Swords of the Cross" isn't a Catch, since Swords of the Cross already satisfy every Catch.  You should be taking the standard Catch of Denarians, which is "Blessed swords, holy water, faith magic, that sort of thing."

Another thing you might want to consider is that your background makes it very clear that your character is very strong-willed, so much so that he is able to hold his ground in a battle of wills against his Fallen.  Yet your Conviction is 'Good' and your Discipline is 'Fair'.  I think that at least one of these should be significantly higher to represent your strength of will (and Discipline is probably the better choice).

I think that your big problem is going to be that if your GM handles your Denarian correctly, you will be (rightfully) compelled by your high concept at all of the most story-appropriate yet inconvenient times, and assuming your GM does so at the right times (ie, mostly at times when accepting the compel would be very troublesome), you will often have a shortage Fate with which to buy off the compel (assuming you have any at all).  By this, I mean that if your GM compels you to kick every puppy you see, then you will end up with a lot of terrified puppies and a pile of Fate to spend on the Important Stuff.  But if your GM waits until a key battle against your Nemesis, when your resources are nearly expended, then offers a Fate point and points out that the innocent little girl hiding in the corner would make a wonderful shield to protect you against those sprays of machine-gun fire...

All in all, I think you might be better off considering battling against your Fallen's shadow, rather than the Fallen itself.  Perhaps your character pulled a Dresden, and has hidden his coin out of reach, and figures that he'll take on the Shadow first, then if successful they can confront the Fallen 'together' (possibly by 'corrupting' the Fallen with the redemption of the Shadow)?

Regardless of what you decide, have fun with the character!