A Non-Evil Denarian?

[darkfire14]

The Denarians are interesting antagonists in the Dresdenverse, but are all of them irredeemably evil? In an old White Wolf Game called Demon: The Fallen, not all the Fallen can be defined as "Cookie Cutter" evil. Some were true rebels wanting to spit in the face of God, while others were just "Swept Along" with the rebellion, choosing the side of Lucifer out of Loyality or because his arguments swayed them to their cause. Of course as they say, the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

It reminds me of a Demon: The Fallen character I made called Alandriel, Angel of the Soothing Wind. She chose Lucifer's rebellion mainly because many of her close friends did and was suckered into believing Lucifer's word. And thus she got caught up in the Angel War, forced to chose Lucifer's side or oblivion.  The Abyss of Hell, took its toll on her sanity, but after her escape and merging with host, she realized her mistakes and joined the "Redeemers", trying to one day find herself forgiven by God and return to the heavens.

So in the Dresdenverse, are are the Denarians Evil Incarnate or are some just caught up in the flow and truly desire some form of redemption in the eyes of God?

[Tallyrand]

Personally I would say that the Denarians are irredemably evil, however that doesn't preclude a good person using a Denarian's power.  In so far as games like Demon, you can still use those types of demons using the same rational as Demon: The Fallen, but the Denarians wouldn't have become the Denarians if they weren't very VERY evil, and that only happened a little less than 2000 years ago.  For something that has been around since the beginning of time, that's not a lot of opportunity to reform.

Note though, that doesn't mean you can't use them in a moral challenge for the characters.  You can have a particularly long sighted Denarian working to do good in the present knowing that it will cause evil later, or you can have a genuinely good person who uses the power of the Denarian coins for righteousness and (so far) has managed to resist temptations.

[EdgeOfDreams]

The only evidence we really have on this point is the actions of the Denarians as shown in the books, and particularly Harry's interactions with

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Lasciel, or Lasciel's shadow.

In particular,

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Lasciel's shadow implies to Harry that she would be perfectly happy lending her power to him for whatever pursuits he desired, even if that meant being a greater force for *good*.

Of course, any such claim from a Denarian to be good, evil, or even just purple should be eyed with great suspicion.

The idea of a Denarian who desires redemption, or who does not wish to reconcile with the White God yet is not truly evil, certainly fits within the Grey morality of the series.  I think it could make for a very interesting character and plot point, depending on how you choose to portray it.

[Tedronai]

the Denarians wouldn't have become the Denarians if they weren't very VERY evil

Not that I necessarily think that any of the Denarians could be called even remotely 'good', but do you happen to have meaningful backing for this claim?

[Tallyrand]

Not that I necessarily think that any of the Denarians could be called even remotely 'good', but do you happen to have meaningful backing for this claim?

From my reading the demons who became the Denarians did so to allow themselves carte-blanche in f*ing with humanity.  Presumably if we're using a Christian like hell you have a bunch of demons working under Satan with the goal of defeating heaven in the last battle.  This being the case I would assume that, with only 30 spots available, there was some sort of selection process with Satan or someone in his high ranks making the choices of who gets in.  Since they would only choose those who will do the most to corrupt and or destroy humanity I think we can safely assume that the 30 who got in were the worst of the worst.

[Tedronai]

If that were the case, one would think that the Prince of Hell would have selected himself.

The angels (not demons) who became Denarians did so to allow themselves to meaningfully interact with the mortal world.  That most of them wished such access in order to negatively impact human life is not indicative of the intent of ALL the angels who found themselves in such a position.

[MijRai]

I would say there are no non-evil Denarians. The 30 Denarians are the top 30 Fallen, that Satan himself kicked out of Hell to the mortal world because he was worried about them. Now, that doesn't preclude a Fallen getting to the world in a different way to be held in a coin and help a host for good to redeem themself.

[Tallyrand]

If that were the case, one would think that the Prince of Hell would have selected himself.

The angels (not demons) who became Denarians did so to allow themselves to meaningfully interact with the mortal world.  That most of them wished such access in order to negatively impact human life is not indicative of the intent of ALL the angels who found themselves in such a position.

Satan has better things to do than to run around on Earth.  Also, demon is a common term for fallen angel, let's not turn this into a semantics argument.

[Tedronai]

Better things to do like what?  He can't access Heaven, and he can't access the mortal world at all.  What's he doing with his time that's so important and wouldn't be better served by escaping from his prison?

As for 'demon' vs 'fallen angel', the terms both in-world and in-game are quite distinct.  'Chauncy' is a demon, Lasciel is a fallen angel, and the two are about as different as Harry and Lea.

[Becq]

Christianity teaches that there is nothing that can put a person beyond redemption, so I assume that would apply to the Fallen, as well.  However, redemption requires repentence, and I think it's highly unlikely that any of the Fallen would repent, having become set in their ways since existence was young.  What we see of Lasciel (or at least, her shadow) does seem to indicate that such a thing might be possible, but (a) Lash is not Lasciel, and (b) any apparent act of repentence is likely to be cover for a betrayal -- after all, the thirty coins are the thirty pieces of silver which paid for Jesus' betrayal by Judas.

I think that a story based on the redemption of one of the Fallen would make for an interesting campaign.  However, I think that the sincerity of the Fallen should *always* be very much in doubt to the players, in order to build tension.  In addition, no social/mental/whatever skill roll should ever be allowed to sway the end result (ie, players should not be allowed to 'persuade' the Fallen to repent, no matter what they roll).  Such rolls might affect a momentary change, but the Fallen should remain a Plot Device.

At least, that's my take.  Your story might vary...

[Viatos]

They've had a long time locked in silver coins to re-acquaint themselves with humanity, its beauty and its horror. A change of heart is not inconceivable - and it is worth noting that there are other changes of heart possible beyond a desire for redemption. In an exception-based kitchen sink universe, I'd say that penitent Fallen are both possible and in-theme.

Possibly relevant: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiAntiChrist

[kamilion]

I've actually wondered how close to classic Christian mythology JB is hewing on the Blackened Denarius. I did some research on the angels, fallen angels, etc, and came up with some interesting bits. It's a little far afield of the actual discussion, but it neatly answered the question for me; the question being "Are all Denarians evil?"

Incidentally, this is all based on a couple of research papers by Catholic scholars I dug up on the intertubes. I can't guarantee its validity, but it was certainly well supported.


Satan turned against God, and was cast down. However, he was not thrown into Hell, but was placed as ruler over all of the Earth. Essentially, he became God's dirty work man who serves to test the faith of mankind. Satan is a manipulator, never taking action directly, even in the last days. Incidentally, the Bible never calls Satan a fallen angel, or calls him/it Lucifer, though there is some reference to angels being cast down with a fallen angel associated with the Morning Star, a Babylonian king.

The first angels to fall were known as the Watchers, angels who were tasked to watch over Eden and then the tribes of mankind after Eden. They lusted after the women of humanity during Noah's time, siring the Nephilim, "who strode the land like giants." God flooded the world to destroy the Nephilim, and cast the Watchers into the Abyss to be imprisoned until the Apocalypse. They are led by Abbadon, known as the Destroyer, who serves Satan. The Nephilim were stripped of their flesh by God, and became demons, now existing as spirits to torture, tempt, and lead astray mankind.

After the Flood the 70 tribes of man were rules over by 70 angels, placed as gods (little G) over mankind by God. These god/angels quickly took to fighting amongst themselves (there are some statements in the Bible that suggest that the classic archangels, Michael, Uriel, Raphael, etc, were amongst these gods, though loyal to God). Many of these god/angels turned against God. Thus, Yeshua (now Jesus) was born, lived, and ascended. With his ascension, the god/angel rulers of Earth were removed from power and called back to Heaven. Any who refused would be considered Fallen and cast into the Abyss.


After that, the Bible isn't very clear on angels, demons, etc. Direct interference with humanity (by God, angels, demons, or Satan) was more the arena of the Old Testament.

What I've added on, in order to explain the Blackened Denarius, is that there were 30 of the angelic rulers of mankind who rebelled against God and wished to avoid being either called back to Heaven or cast into the Abyss (which appears to be basically a prison, and not directly related to the pit of fire that is the resting place of bad people). These 30 angels bound themselves to material objects (30 silver coins) using the blood sacrifice of Judas' betrayal and subsequent suicide, and became the Knights of the Blackened Denarius, allowing them to remain on Earth.

The Denarians originally had a goal, which was to short-circuit the Apocalypse. See, in the end times, there will be signs, until eventually the Abyss is opened by the sounding of the horns, and Abaddon, who is called the Destroyer, will rise and rule over the Earth for 3 1/2 years of destruction. Then Yeshua/Jesus will return, Abaddon and his followers (who I've decided are the 20 fallen Watchers and any other cast down angels, though they don't get mentioned again in the Bible) will be imprisoned in the Abyss again, forever.

In my Dresdenverse, the Denarians believe that if they can release Abaddon and/or the Watchers before the appointed time, they can prevent the Apocalypse (which actually ends pretty badly for the bad guys), or at least prevent the course of events that will end up with them all stuffed in a prison for all eternity.

Conclusion: In my Dresdenverse, all Denarians are bad guys, with a goal of unleashing untold destruction on mankind because they want to rule instead of God. Can some be regretting the decision after a few years, sure, but they all committed to a course of action that I think the majority of humanity would call evil.

Wow, that went on long.

[kamilion]

Christianity teaches that there is nothing that can put a person beyond redemption, so I assume that would apply to the Fallen, as well.  However, redemption requires repentence, and I think it's highly unlikely that any of the Fallen would repent, having become set in their ways since existence was young.  What we see of Lasciel (or at least, her shadow) does seem to indicate that such a thing might be possible, but (a) Lash is not Lasciel, and (b) any apparent act of repentence is likely to be cover for a betrayal -- after all, the thirty coins are the thirty pieces of silver which paid for Jesus' betrayal by Judas.

That makes me think - while I'm not sure about a repentant Denarian (not impossible, but like you said, unlikely), I rather like the idea of an apologetic Denarian. "Look, yes, I'm trying to end the world, subjugate all of its people, and basically rule over a kingdom of blood and tyranny, but I'd rather not, really. It's just, it seemed like a good idea at the time, and now, well... I'm committed, man. You see?" Which, being an evil, terrible bastard of a GM, I would then follow with the horrendous death of someone important to the characters.

Maybe I just like smiling killers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil).

[Haru]

I believe, the denariens are capital 'E' Evil. However, they are not the only Fallen, so there could be plenty of material to work with.

I remember one discussion between Michael and Harry, where Harry explains to Michael, why the Fallen don't like entering a church (or "Holy Ground", I think he calls it). It is because it makes them feel, puts doubt in their minds about their ways, and after millennia of being sure of your cause, suddenly doubting everything you stand for, everything you are, must be really hard.

But what if one of the Fallen did exactly that? He imprisoned himself inside a church and the priest of that church works with him to help him redeem himself and maybe find forgiveness. He can't leave the church, because then he would revert to his old self, which could add some tension to the story (maybe the church is about to be knocked down, and the Fallen would then be free to do whatever). I especially like the idea of a group of players entering a badly lit room in the back of a ruinous church and talking to a shadowy figure that is later revealed to be a fallen angel.

[Tedronai]

because they want to rule instead of God.

You mean "because they want neither to be imprisoned for all eternity, nor to be subservient to a being they feel has betrayed them in favour of His 'younger children', ie. mankind".
The methods they have chosen, certainly, are not in the best interests of mankind, but then, they were here, first, and it wasn't the Fallen that set this course of action, but rather had a dichotomous ultimatum set for them.  They just responded with 'option C'.


@Haru
I believe the term Lash used to describe her feelings upon entering a church / holy site was 'homesick'.  Not that she regretted her actions, but that she regretted their cost.