More Holy Swords Than Three?

[darkfire14]

The Knights of the Cross are pretty interesting in my opinion, but they also have a large problem as well. There are supposedly only three holy swords, two of which eventually fell into Dresden's hands and were never redistributed. First of all, WHY IN HELL would the church even allow Dresden to keep such relics? Wouldn't they want to take them and redistribute them immediately to worthy successors. There is no time for these swords to sit around idle, when there is a constant war to fight against evil.

Secondly, just THREE SWORDS in the entire world? Come on, there are numerous legends of TONS of other holy swords. What about the sword of Jenne D'arc for instance? She's a canonized saint who performed miracles on the battlefield, so don't tell me her blade wouldn't be a holy relic comparable to the swords that the Knights of the Cross wield.

Honestly, can only THREE SWORDS make a difference in the ENTIRE WORLD! Definitely shows the church doesn't care enough to fight evil if they depend on only three people to be their champions, while the regular priests just give their weak ass prayers and hope to make the world a better place. So SHOULD there be more than three holy swords in the Dresdenverse?

[Bujin]

I think it should be only three.  The mythology of the Knights of the Cross is specifically tied to the three nails that Jesus was crucified with, pitted against foes representing the Judas' 30 pieces of silver.  While there are certainly other swords that could be used in the Dresden-verse, they definitely would dilute that mythology.

As for why the Church allows Harry to keep the swords, I think it's been established that the Church doesn't control who wields the swords, but rather has faith that the swords find their wielder.  They take a longer view of the battle.

[WillH]

Two things, first read The Warrior in Side Jobs. Second, all that stuff in the books is Jim's story. Tell your own story. It doesn't need to follow the books exactly. Maybe Harry give one to someone in your game, or perhaps the knights in the novels aren't the Knights in your story at all.

[Tedronai]

And what's to say that some of those other 'holy swords' weren't actually just various incarnations of the Swords of the Cross?

[Richard_Chilton]

There are other "holy warrior" types - there's even a Church order discussed in one of the stories.  The short stories The Warrior gives some details on that.

But the three swords are Special.  The Church didn't decide that there would be three of them - someone "High Up" did.  They were made to counter the influence of 30 Fallen Angels that are partly free from Hell and someone up there decided that at 10 : 1 ratio was fair.

In addition to what the Church is doing, the book Turn Coat

(click to show/hide)

hints that various 'medicine men' were given special powers by the gods they followed.

Then are other groups who fight "evil" - usually listed as allies of the White Council (at least they allies during the Red Court War) who might not have a close religious angle.


If you're looking for "This guy was picked by God to fight evil" there's an entire section of powers in the book dealing with Faith.  It's just that only three of them get Swords.

Richard

[Paynesgrey]

Yeah.... the Church seems to acknowledge that the disposition of the Swords is from Higher Authority.  I wouldn't be surprised if over the centuries there was some trial and error where some faction would try to decide who they thought should carry the Swords.  Politcal and dogmatic reliablity and the like.  And those darned coincidences just kept putting the swords in someone else's hands...  These days, chances are most members of the clergy and even administration don't even know of their existance.

[vampmike]

The Knights of the Cross are pretty interesting in my opinion, but they also have a large problem as well. There are supposedly only three holy swords, two of which eventually fell into Dresden's hands and were never redistributed. First of all, WHY IN HELL would the church even allow Dresden to keep such relics? Wouldn't they want to take them and redistribute them immediately to worthy successors. There is no time for these swords to sit around idle, when there is a constant war to fight against evil.

Secondly, just THREE SWORDS in the entire world? Come on, there are numerous legends of TONS of other holy swords. What about the sword of Jenne D'arc for instance? She's a canonized saint who performed miracles on the battlefield, so don't tell me her blade wouldn't be a holy relic comparable to the swords that the Knights of the Cross wield.

Honestly, can only THREE SWORDS make a difference in the ENTIRE WORLD! Definitely shows the church doesn't care enough to fight evil if they depend on only three people to be their champions, while the regular priests just give their weak ass prayers and hope to make the world a better place. So SHOULD there be more than three holy swords in the Dresdenverse?

bujins dead on, the Knights of the cross are 3 because there are 3 swords, remember that they have a specific goal to fight the Denarians or more specifically to save the hosts if possible and kill if not.

now thats does not mean that there are only 3 holy relics of the white god that fight evil, these are just the ones that are focused on in the books. in a game i ran i had a player want a sword exactly like the swords of the cross, and we came upon a good idea, that there were swords out there called the swords of the archangels, the order of the sword [as we called it] was to defend the world against the outsiders.

now there is no reason why there isnt another order whos specific goals are the defeat of vampires,mages, the fey.  and where does the power of these swords come from well there are thousands of saints bones or items that once belonged to them.

[sandchigger]

These days, chances are most members of the clergy and even administration don't even know of their existance.

Both Michael and Father Forthill acknowledge this in The Warrior. Something like less than a dozen priests all over the world know the full story of the swords.

[tymire]

Just have to say "The Warrior" probably is my favorite short story.  Uriel's discussion with Harry at the end was just fricken awesome.  It gives more insight how the Archangels work than any other books written by JB.

But as stated the church itself doesn't really have anything to do with the swords as they fall under the Archangels portfolio.  The few that know about them respect that, hence why Harry still has two.  It's also why out of the three Knights we have seen; only one of them might be a Catholic (I don’t remember seeing anything that said what denomination Michael was).  It seems one of the only requirements is to be a noble linage.  The fact the sword of love is being wielded by someone that is Angoistic is just hillarious.

[Belial666]

You mean the sword of Faith, right?

Also, it is not hilarious. To believe in something when you (correctly) claim you know nothing about it is harder to do than to believe in something you believe you know.

[sandchigger]

Michael is a Catholic, Shiro was a Baptist (technically) and Sanya is agnostic.

[tymire]

Bah am wrong.  Sanya has the Sword of Hope, Micheal/Susan used the Sword of Love, and Shiro/Murph used the Sword of Faith.  It's clear which is which in Changes.

[sandchigger]

And to get the thread back to the original topic. I'm perfectly okay with there being more Holy Weapons in the Dresdenverse. I just see them as the primary order of Holy Warriors fighting for the White God who are supported by the Church. Somewhere on the boards is a character concept for a guy wielding the Spear of Destiny. It's functionally identical to the Swords of the Cross, but there's just one of it and there's not a lot of backup coming for it's wielder.

Heck, it's not as though Christianity is the only religion out there, there's no reason to limit warriors of the faith to one group of faithful. I'm sure that muslims, jews, hindus and buddhists all have their own devout protectors. And beyond that, Jim's written in both Norse and Greek gods, and there's no reason that they too can't have their own champions. You could have Champions of Thor smiting the children of Ice and Fire giants (maybe the fae of the Summer and Winter courts?) with their Hammers or the Chosen of Herakles (the most widely worshipped pre-christian deity in the world) out beating modern day Nemean Lions to death with their bare hands.

[TheMouse]

I usually figure it's like this.

The Swords were created very specifically to deal with the 40 Fallen associated with the silver coins belonging to Judas. That's their whole point. When they do other things, it is just their wielders performing acts of good will while waiting for the next chance to deal with the Denarians, hopefully to save them.

There are sure to be other magic items. We know for sure that there are: Wardens swords are in point of fact magical swords. There are probably lots of ways that people have over time used magic to make swords better.

Now the question is, are there other holy weapons? It seems likely to me. A number of saints have been known to have weapons. A Judeochristianity doesn't have exclusive possession of myths about holy weapons. Odin was known to bless warriors' swords (although it was often a way to screw them in the end). And there are lots more if you look.

In short, the Swords of the Cross are pretty special. But their existence doesn't stop other magical and/or holy weapons from existing. Some may even be as special as the Swords are. The Archangel Michael is known for carrying a very special sword, for instance.

[Belial666]

In fact, the whole "Excalibur" idea comes from the sword "Balmung", a sword forged out of a meteor in Norse mythology. Though the sword is also called "Gram" in some myths.