Outsider Immunity and Sponsored Magic

[sinker]

Something just occurred to me while playing. We know outsiders are immune/resistant to magic. Does this include sponsored sources? Fae? Hellfire? Any other thoughts as to why?

[Viatos]

Something just occurred to me while playing. We know outsiders are immune/resistant to magic. Does this include sponsored sources? Fae? Hellfire? Any other thoughts as to why?

Yes, it includes those sources, because they are all Spellcraft powers. It doesn't matter if the power is from a mortal soul, the Nevernever, or Downbelow - it's power intrinsically linked to some level of the Dresdenverse. The Outsiders are OUTSIDE, and it's all the same to them.

For balance and lore reasons, of course, if the White God's Soulfire or Mab's blessing could blast Outsiders right through their Toughness powers, they probably wouldn't be such a big deal. I would still let Soulfire reduce their protection by a level, downgrading Physical Immunity to Mythic Toughness.

[Samael]

not sure I agree with that, given just how rare those gifts are, Winter Magic and Soulfire are VERY rare gifts in canon to possess, so I think its likely they can affect Outsiders, but since the Outsiders/Old Ones are pretty much numberless hoards you lose if only cause of getting zerg rushed...

[Belial666]

At least lesser Outsiders like tentacled horrors are vulnerable to True Faith. For a bigger Outsider's immunity to magic, just pick up a car or piece of building with magic and throw it at him. You'll be using the force of the spell to attack but the damage won't actually be directly from magic. 

[Tedronai]

Carry a quiver full of metallic knitting needles.  Knitting needles that have spent the past week or more being repeatedly blessed by the assembled clergy of the local inter-faith alliance.  Launch those needles at any outsider with the gall to cross your path. (assumes you have access to Earth, Air, or Spirit evocation or channeling with which to propel the needles)

[Belial666]

Needles are generally light, brittle and thus do little damage. Plus blessing them makes no sense. Silver crosses from churches however are a) heavy metal and b) a lot heavier that bullets. Them being blessed also makes a lot of sense.

So carry those things. They'd satisfy catches of vampires, undead, outsiders, demons and shapeshifters if they're blessed silver and vampires, undead, outsiders, demons, fae and ghosts if they're blessed iron.

[Tedronai]

Needles are generally light, brittle and thus do little damage. Plus blessing them makes no sense. Silver crosses from churches however are a) heavy metal and b) a lot heavier that bullets. Them being blessed also makes a lot of sense.

So carry those things. They'd satisfy catches of vampires, undead, outsiders, demons and shapeshifters if they're blessed silver and vampires, undead, outsiders, demons, fae and ghosts if they're blessed iron.

They're light, so they can be propelled to exceptional velocities with comparatively little force.
They're relatively brittle, but will be striking their targets in line with their strongest axis.  And even if they do break apart, well, have you seen the effects a frangible bullet has on soft tissue?

Crosses, or any other symbol of faith, themselves have no power.  This is established Dresdenverse canon.  It is through the faith of those that wield them that they affect creatures as they do (beyond simply bludgeoning 'people' over the head with blunt instruments, that is).
'Holy water', however, has been established to carry power in itself.  By virtue of having been blessed by those of potent Faith.  It is reasonable to assume that such effects are not limited solely to water.  And while it is also reasonable to assume that water is used for such things because it is particularly suitable to the purpose, well, that's why I recommended having the needles blessed repeatedly and by multiple Faith representatives.

[Belial666]

The reason most projectile weaponry uses dense and relatively large projectiles is that a lighter object needs exponentially larger amounts of energy for similar amount of momentum. I.e. a 1-pound object needs 100 times as much energy as a 10-pound one for the same momentum. And once you go at speeds comparable to the speed of sound or higher, kinetic energy stops being the most important factor in many cases and momentum becomes the most important. That's because at high speeds, kinetic energy is mostly used up when the projectile deforms on impact - but relative momentum is responsible for tough materials breaking.

[Bruce Coulson]

Here's a nasty story idea...

Outsiders are immune/resistant to mortal magic and sponsored magic.

There is nothing that states that all Outsiders are on the same 'side' (anymore than every member of the Lowerarchy works together as a team).

Nor is there anything that states that Outsiders are resistant or immune to OUTSIDER Magic...

So, while confronting a very nasty entity from Outside, the PCs are offered some help from another Outsider.  Why?  What is it gaining?  And if what they're fighting is really terrible, can they truly turn down the offer?

[Belial666]

An interesting point - and one of the main points of this character;
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22358.msg965566.html#msg965566


 

[sinker]

I think you guys misunderstood. I'm the outsider. We are not trying to kill me.

I'm currently playing a character who through terrible rituals was conceived by an outsider. Thus he carries his father-ish's immunity to magic. I'm wondering if that should apply to sources other than mortal practitioners.

[Bruce Coulson]

No, you are not trying to kill you; we most certainly are...

It probably should, if you think it should.  I'd allow it as a reasonable extension of an Outsider's natural ability.  Magic, at the core, is magic of this reality.

[Belial666]

Unless the enemies have Outsider sponsored magic themselves - or Kemmlerian Necromancy; necromancy uses different types of energy than most normal magics. Also, do note that Physical Immunity; Magic only stops direct magical attacks from doing physical stress. It does nothing to protect your mind/soul and neither does it stop direct maneuvers with magic - or magical grapples.

Here is an ability I use to mechanically represent true magic immunity;

[-8] Walking Violation - Outsiders are walking violations of the natural order of the universe, leeching all energy out of it. The zone an Outsider is in is treated as a Legendary threshold, except against the powers of undead and outsiders. This does not stop supernatural creatures from entering like a full threshold does; it merely diminishes their power. Supernatural creatures with too little power to survive simply crumble to dust.

[Tedronai]

The reason most projectile weaponry uses dense and relatively large projectiles is that a lighter object needs exponentially larger amounts of energy for similar amount of momentum. I.e. a 1-pound object needs 100 times as much energy as a 10-pound one for the same momentum.

That's just...wrong.
Momentum, basically, IS energy, expressed in coherent motion.
All else being equal, a 1kg object imparted with the same energy as a 10kg object will travel at 10 times the velocity, and both will possess the same momentum
A common unit of measurement for momentum being kg*m/s, or mass times velocity, velocity being a product of acceleration over time, and acceleration being a product of force divided by mass, if (all else being equal) the force applied to the two differently massed objects is equal, so too will be their momentum, but not their velocities.





Back on topic, though, we really have very little to go on as to what Outsiders are actually resistant, or vulnerable, to.  All the answers, here, to that effect are largely speculative, and representative only of the opinions of those giving them.
On that note, it is my opinion, that outsider resistance to magic, applying primarily but not solely to mortal magic, should be reduced in concert with the 'alien-ness' of the magic used against them, or of its source.  The more 'not human' the magic, or its source, is, the less an outsider should resist it.

[sandchigger]

You're an Outsider's bebbe, eh? Playin' ole Wilbur Whateley then, are ye?

Take the Trouble Aspect "Gotta Keep My Brother Hidden".