What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?

[devonapple]

Luke: Well, more wealth than you can imagine!
Han Solo: I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit.

I suppose nobody thought they could ever line up the circumstances necessary for the way "Changes" resolved, either.  And they didn't, until it became a plot point for the author.

Sure, Dresden can be an unreliable witness, and he can't know everything, but there remain some things which - were they even remotely possible with anything below deity-level power - would have inescapable world-altering ramifications, even if he himself had not come up with them.

Maybe this will change. Maybe the Hermione Grangers of the Dresdenverse will come out of the woodwork and turn all of these "facts" on their ear. Maybe the Ponder Stibbonses will build a Rube Goldberg-esque steam-and-ant-powered supercomputer that turns the White Council into a league of well-informed surgical nuclear holocausts waiting to happen. "Maybe" covers a lot of things. And that is where our games take place.

Until it becomes "plot," we should be guided the setting and its (meta)physics to confirm that we're on the same page. Thaumaturgy can theoretically reproduce any effect, it is true. But there's a certain point at which a GM gets to decide: "32-shift head exploding spell? sure. Tear the Demon out of a White Court Vampire? not going to get any traction on that."

Edit: "not going to get any traction on that using Thaumaturgy, anyway. How about a field trip to the Fairy Courts?"

[Tedronai]

Or, more appropriately:
Tear the Demon out of a White Court Vampire?  I'd really rather not deal with that kind of world-shaking power in this game, at this time.  If you'd like, we could put it on the backburner, and have your character working on the fundamental research for such a project in the background of what'll be going on in this story.  You should probably devote an aspect to that research if you want it to come up at all, and even then, it'll likely only be in the form of compels for now.  I'm still not saying it's possible, at least not with what's reasonably likely to be available to your character in the foreseeable future of this story, but researching the possibility?  Sure, that'd be fine.

[zenten]

If you want to do something strictly by the system, you could always compel the Wizard to not be able to do whatever effect as a compel on their high concept, which is how I would handle Harry not being able to turn Susan mortal.

[Tedronai]

Harry's player then negotiates that compel down to 'this method of achieving my goal will fail' for a few months, raking in the FPs, that he eventually uses to go ape***t on a certain crazy-lady, before finally accepting that a mortal practitioner simply isn't going to be able to pull it off.

[Becq]

The obvious answer to that being that Dresden (along with anyone or anything on a comparable power scale) is simply incapable of performing (or conceiving of) a suitably complex and powerful ritual.

Someone on the power scale of Mother Winter, on the other hand is demonstrably capable of workings on such a scale.

I agree with respect to Harry, but it seems like something Bob would have at least a bit of info on.  And given the not inconsiderable resources of the Fellowship, I think it strains belief that they wouldn't have found a solution if there was one.  Not only that, but imagine the benefit to the White Council such a cure would be in their war against the Red Court.  If all of the resources of the most powerful Wizards in existence can't come up with the cure, then I'd conclude it either doesn't exist or is well beyond reach.

[Tedronai]

Well, they actually DID find a cure for the RCI, now, didn't they?  TWO cures, in fact. 

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One individual cure from Mother Winter, and one global cure from the Red King's own hand.

  Yes, they were well beyond the reach of a mortal practitioner, or the assembled resources of the Fellowship, and one was beyond the thought processes, at the least, of the assembled Council.  But they were available.

[Becq]

Keep in mind the context of this discussion, we were talking about exorcisms, presumeably by means of a ritual performed by either a mortal priest or a practitioner of Magic.  The solutions you mention are well beyond the bounds of any such exorcism ritual.

[Tedronai]

They are demonstrable evidence that the desired effect is, in theory, possible, and both canonical instances of a 'cure' were on scale far surpassing the proposed 'exorcism',

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the first being a solution to ANY 'enchantment', and the second being GLOBAL.

[Becq]

First of all, note that

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the Red King thing was a death spell of mythic size, not a cure of vampirism

and that in the DFRPG reality, the Winter Mother is only one rung below The Almighty on the six rung "Supernatural Heavyweights" table (OW28) that doesn't even mention the most powerful members of the White Council.

The fact that some entity, somewhere in the DF reality, can accomplish something says nothing about the the capabilities of other non-similar entities.  If you take your logic (Mother Winter can accomplish a thing, therefore a Wizard could eventually learn to accomplish the same thing through mortal magic) to the extreme, then you'd have to conclude that Harry is, in fact capable of Creating all of Existence, if only he tagged enough Aspects (The Almighty can accomplish a thing, therefore a Wizard could learn to accomplish the same thing through mortal magic).

In any case, the question isn't "Can a Red Court Infection be removed", it's "What would an exorcism do to a White Court Vampire".  And while the question is certainly a matter of opinion and may be approached differently in different gaming groups, I stand by my opinion that DFRPG vampirism is a curse/infection/inherited condition rather than a possession, and that therefore no exorcism will have any effect on any member of any of the three Courts.  Note that I similarly feel that an exorcism would have no effect on someone suffering from a birth defect or even from the common cold (though your typical drug store can sell you something that might help a bit with the latter).

[Tedronai]

First of all, note that

(click to show/hide)

the Red King thing was a death spell of mythic size, not a cure of vampirism

and that in the DFRPG reality, the Winter Mother is only one rung below The Almighty on the six rung "Supernatural Heavyweights" table (OW28) that doesn't even mention the most powerful members of the White Council.

How do you cure an infection?  You kill it.
What happens when that infection has crossed over into the realm of symbiosis by mutual necessity?  The host dies, too.

Thus far in real world medicine, a panacea is incomprehensibly beyond human capability.  And yet we find ourselves perfectly capable of curing any number of individual illnesses with tailored treatments.

The fact that some entity, somewhere in the DF reality, can accomplish something says nothing about the the capabilities of other non-similar entities.  If you take your logic (Mother Winter can accomplish a thing, therefore a Wizard could eventually learn to accomplish the same thing through mortal magic) to the extreme, then you'd have to conclude that Harry is, in fact capable of Creating all of Existence, if only he tagged enough Aspects (The Almighty can accomplish a thing, therefore a Wizard could learn to accomplish the same thing through mortal magic).

ABSOLUTELY.  If your mortal practitioner can manage to pull off a ... let's go with ... three trillion complexity ritual (and that's almost definitely extremely low-balled), you get your very own, fresh off the line capital-E-Existence.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.

In any case, the question isn't "Can a Red Court Infection be removed", it's "What would an exorcism do to a White Court Vampire".  And while the question is certainly a matter of opinion and may be approached differently in different gaming groups, I stand by my opinion that DFRPG vampirism is a curse/infection/inherited condition rather than a possession, and that therefore no exorcism will have any effect on any member of any of the three Courts.  Note that I similarly feel that an exorcism would have no effect on someone suffering from a birth defect or even from the common cold (though your typical drug store can sell you something that might help a bit with the latter).

Primarily a matter of the definition of 'exorcism', I would say.