WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.

[sandchigger]

So it's noted in the books that Lord Raith keeps his girls well under his ah... thumb by use of his abilities as a WCV.

(click to show/hide)

Though later, Lara manages to turn the tables and enthrall HIM.

So I'm wondering... how, exactly, is this done? Unless I missed a big slab of text in the powers write-up, I don't see anything inherent in Emotional Vampire that would allow this and again, barring my illiteracy, I didn't see anything in any of the OW character write-ups for the WCVs about a Dominate Minds power.

Am I missing something obvious here?

[devonapple]

I don't know if it is necessarily obvious, but I have been thinking about that as well, and I choose to interpret it as follows:

(click to show/hide)

Lara managed to legitimately "Take Out" Lord Raith using the normal conflict rules - using her Incite Emotion/Feeding/etc. - and opted that his "death" be a mental one, leaving him basically a vegetable, under her control, so she could leave him as the figurehead. Either that or Lord Raith Conceded and accepted that state.

In short, the Taken Out/Concession mechanics.

[sandchigger]

Well crap. It's obvious NOW!

[devonapple]

Well crap. It's obvious NOW!

Well, there is that "Create Renfield" power, which I could easily see being a red herring for someone trying to model that same outcome, but the Taken Out/Consession mechanics do cover it nicely.

[ways and means]

It is pretty easy to see how using emotion control power could lead to someone become a complete thrall to you, say with incite lust you literally have soemone become addicted to you and use that. With inciting something like awe you could probably argue that someone you take out would obey you because you are the absolute soveriegn master who deserves to be obeyed. Though for game balance it could get a bit broken imagine a pet loup garou or a pet black court vampire.

[devonapple]

Though for game balance it could get a bit broken imagine a pet loup garou or a pet black court vampire.

There are ways to balance it back. As with a full-size machine gun, amassing and relying on such resources may soon garner some unwanted attention, and even allies might start making contingency plans in case you go rogue. For villains, this is just henchman variety.

[DFJunkie]

Well I think someone mentions in Blood Rites that WCVs settle disagreements by pitting their demons against each other, so I'd expect that this sort of manipulation is inordinately effective when it's between two WCVs.

Also, please note that

(click to show/hide)

Lara was able to overcome her previous defeat by her father to eventually turn the tables on him, so it isn't like it's a perfect eternal thrall-maker.

[ways and means]

Well I think someone mentions in Blood Rites that WCVs settle disagreements by pitting their demons against each other, so I'd expect that this sort of manipulation is inordinately effective when it's between two WCVs.

Also, please note that

(click to show/hide)

Lara was able to overcome her previous defeat by her father to eventually turn the tables on him, so it isn't like it's a perfect eternal thrall-maker.

I think it was mentioned in the same book that Raith family troops weren't perfect thralls because that would make then less effective soliders, it might be the same within the family Lara would probably be a pretty rubbish aid-de-camp if she was incapable of making any decisions herself. I think if someone was truely broken with mental powers and did not fully understand the nature of the power used against them they would have very little chance of overcomeing their conditioning.   

[sandchigger]

Granted, W&M, but what we see of

(click to show/hide)

Papa Raith

in later books like White Knight and the way he's described in Backup kinda make it seem like complete domination is a definite possibility.

[Tedronai]

So long as that domination is regularly enforced, at least, and with significantly decreased capacity in the victim.

[Belial666]

Except that Lord Raith's powers were crippled. Maybe after the crippling, he started losing control of his family.

[Tedronai]

Because he could no longer properly reinforce the domination.

[DFJunkie]

Because he could no longer properly reinforce the domination.

True, though he probably didn't reinforce it too frequently in any case.  That kind of domination doesn't seem any different from simply beating someone into submission on a regular basis: sure they'll obey your commands, but their minds will be compromised.  I don't think it's the same as a BCV's ability to create a thrall.

[tymire]

Probably doesn't even have to be a take out.  You could get much of the same thing with an extreme mental consequence.  That would explain why Lara could do what she did as over time they recovered from it.

[devonapple]

Probably doesn't even have to be a take out.  You could get much of the same thing with an extreme mental consequence.  That would explain why Lara could do what she did as over time they recovered from it.

Extreme Consequences can easily be a result of a Taken Out/Concession situation.