Weapon rating for big guns?

[BumblingBear]

I'd say 4.
Rpg 5

Yup.

A .50 BMG is a weapon 4.  However, if a character was using special ammo like AP rounds, I would just give the ammo an aspect.

Then during play, it could be invoked with a fate point to bypass 2 points of armor... or something.  Incindiary rounds would meet a fire catch.

[fantazero]

what about things like Garlic ammo on vamps, or silver for werewolves?
Also should you just say
My character always carrys around x,y and z
Or before each scene, should it be, My character feels lucky today and only brings his pistol.
Or my Character is paranoid, loads his trunk with Mp5s and RPGs?

[Tedronai]

if you character ALWAYS has them, you might want to consider taking an Aspect to represent that
the others sound like declarations, to me

[fantazero]

if you character ALWAYS has them, you might want to consider taking an Aspect to represent that
the others sound like declarations, to me

Do I have to declare I have a gun, if I'm a cop (FOR EXAMPLE), everytime?

[devonapple]

Do I have to declare I have a gun, if I'm a cop (FOR EXAMPLE), everytime?

From an abstract standpoint, players *are* essentially making Declarations all the time for these things. Declarations like your example are fairly easy to justify, and so a GM isn't going even ask for a Declaration check - it's essentially a free Declaration. Your high concept as Cop generally supports such Declarations. Simply having the Guns skill should even be enough for a Declaration.

When it gets into make-a-roll territory is when it isn't so easy to assume a particular resource is common to a particular character type. Resources, Declarations of an Aspect, etc. can make up for it, but eventually always having bane-type ammunition obligates somebody to take an Aspect to reflect this, like "There's a Bullet for That," "I Make My Own Ammo," "Just the Right Bullet," "Occult Weaponsmith."

That said, the spirit of the table will sway this one way or another, and if everyone is alright with the Clued-In Cop character always having some sort of bane-type ammo, then roll with it.

[BumblingBear]

I played a character once who always had bane-type ammo available, but this was reflected in one of his core aspects and that his ex wife was a black court vampire.

[Kommisar]

I covered a lot of this in another thread concerning big guns and DU-rounds.

Against a given target the Law of Diminishing Returns applies to the size of the weapon you hit it with.  I challenge anyone to really tell me what difference it makes if you hit a human target in the chest with a .50 cal round vs a 120mm round.  Both create a cratered chest and the target is dead.  The extra energy of the 120mm round (this is what most modern tanks mount and fire as their main gun) over the .50 cal round is wasted.  It is, literally, blow through.

The same applies to the difference between a .50 cal round and the more common military grade rifle rounds (7.62mm, 5.56mm, .308 cal).  The advantage gained by using a .50 rifle is in range and armor penetration.  Not in soft tissue damage.  You can always find a group of gun-bunnies that can talk for hours and hours about the intricacies of tissue damage profiles of the various rounds and give you just as many anecdotal, one-off, war-stories they've heard about.  Most of it is just talk trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill aimed at trying to justify "Cool Factor".  Yes, the .50 will cause more tissue damage.  But that extra damage is, in every way, purely academic.

The way I would model these big rifles and other esoteric and/or military grade weapons is through 3 means:

1)  AP.  I can't remember if this is actually in the book or if I just invented this right now.     But if you are using something designed and purposed to penetrate armor (like a .50 cal with a tungsten penetrating core), I give it a AP rating. This basically means that this round ignores that many levels of Armor.  No extra damage.

2)  Aspects.  Simple, flexible, quick and non-game breaking.  The player declares that he is loading "Ammo X" and gains a free tag on the Aspect "Super Ammo X" for +2 or an Invoke of some sort.

3)  Massive damage catch.  Think Ghouls and Uber-ghouls.


Oh, and yea.  Hit these guys with the Resources and Crafting checks for this stuff.

[Belial666]

The extra damage might be moot point in the case of humans but it is very helpful when hunting bigger things. Elephants are a good RL example for this; if a pissed-off elephant charges you, you only got one shot; if you don't drop the six-ton behemoth before it reaches you, you get flatenned. Hence the 2-bore elephant guns.

The same mentality applies to even tougher - though not necessarily bigger - supernatural creatures. If a human being is up against black court vampires that could literally survive losing pieces of themselves after being hit by a claymore (the mine or the sword - both apply), said humans really need guns that can put pizza-sized holes into humanoid bodies. Because fist-sized holes will just be ignored.

[UmbraLux]

Kommisar has a point, that Mythically Tough ogre has Armor:3 (among other things).  Calling an anti-tank gun Weapon:4 (AP3) is just as effective as calling it Weapon:7 but without the weapon value escalation.  

The method works well for other games, it should work here as well.

Edit:  Corrected AP typo.

[Kommisar]

You can also say that the Elephant has a level of Toughness (I'll let others debate what exact level) with the catch Massive Damage.  A Big Honking Gun would, then, meet that Catch.  Then, you could also argue that the elephant has an Armor Value of 1 (maybe 2).  You're Big Honking Gun, if armor penetrating, has an AP of 4 (say).  Boom, ignores it completely.

Replace elephant with Big Nasty Supernatural Critter and you have the weapons extra punch helping in taking down a nasty bruiser without going down the ever escalating damage increase path that games like D&D and Rifts had; with all the problems that those systems generated.

[Sanctaphrax]

I like what Kommisar is saying here about AP. I think I'll add that to the House Rules thread and maybe use it in my game.

I give elephants Supernatural Toughness with a catch of massive damage.

There are some cases where weapon value escalation is totally appropriate, though. Artillery comes to mind.

[devonapple]

There are some cases where weapon value escalation is totally appropriate, though. Artillery comes to mind.

Then again, there is the FATE spiral dynamic of zooming in or out with the scope of powers/damage/etc. to handle larger- or smaller-scaled conflicts.

[Belial666]

Another point is that even submerged wizards can pull off weapon 8-9 evocations and council-level wizards could flatten buildings. Those guys and gals get higher weapon ratings so why shouldn't people with sufficiently big guns?

[devonapple]

Another point is that even submerged wizards can pull off weapon 8-9 evocations and council-level wizards could flatten buildings. Those guys and gals get higher weapon ratings so why shouldn't people with sufficiently big guns?

Guns don't cost Mental stress to use or have the potential to cause Fallout or Blacklash.
Plus, you can hand anyone a gun and they can at least fire with a +0 skill.

[Kommisar]

Even with artillery, I wouldn't throw out as high a number as many would expect.  Weapon 5 for 105mm and 155mm HE rounds of various sorts would be appropriate.  The big thing with High Explosive weapons is that it affects an entire zone (or multiple zones depending on how you draw them).  Artillery can be tricky for us gamer types to model due to the massive number of variables that are involved.  It can really be "Hand of God" stuff and is why combat veterans can have a very superstitious view of artillery.  You can have a guy survive standing five feet from a shell that hits or a guy killed several hundred feet away from a piece of shrapnel.

In my opinion, that randomness is best left to the roll itself.  If you get hit dead on by a 105mm shell; the tip of the round crushes into your skull and detonates; well, that is a +4 on the roll to hit you, you rolled a -4 on your defense and, therefore, essentially a Weapon 17 attack.  Throw in some Fate points and all...

Arty works best for non-mooks, IMHO, when done through concessions.  Arty hits; start working out the effects as a concession.  You lost a limb.  You, you're "shell shocked".  You've got burst ear drums and are "Bleeding".