How does the sponsor's agenda fit into Sponsored Magic?

[wednesdayboy]

I'm new to the system and I'm playing a changeling with Unseelie Magic.  Last night I gave the Sponsored Magic section another read and I think I was misinterpreting how it is affected by the sponsor's agenda.

At first I thought that sponsored magic could only be used if it fit into the sponsor's agenda.  i.e., During a battle against vampires encroaching on a Winter Court holding Unseelie Magic could be slung all over the place.  But I couldn't do a tracking spell powered by Unseelie Magic on a random lost kid if the Winter Court has zero concern for the kid.

But upon re-reading the Sponsored Magic section and the brief examples it gives, it sounds more to me like you can use the sponsored magic as limitlessly as someone with Evocation and Thaumaturgy can but it allows the sponsor to exert its agenda upon you the more you use it.  The example given was something like, the more you use soulfire, the more able the sponsor is to force you to drop everything to fight a demon or force you to forgive your mortal enemy.  But it doesn't imply that you can only cast soulfire for holy purposes.

I'm not sure which is right but rereading it shed it all in a very different light.  What do you all think?  How should it be interpreted?  (Thanks ahead of time for the responses!)

[zenten]

It's pretty much the second one.  The sponsor can offer sponsor debt for things in line with the sponsor's agenda, or even just things not strongly against the agenda if getting the caster into more debt fits well into that agenda.

[wednesdayboy]

It's pretty much the second one.  The sponsor can offer sponsor debt for things in line with the sponsor's agenda, or even just things not strongly against the agenda if getting the caster into more debt fits well into that agenda.

Cool, thanks for the insight.  I like this option better because it'll make for more interesting troubles for the characters than simply not having access to the magic.  And troubles always make for a better story!

[EdgeOfDreams]

Just to give another example, I played a character Sponsored by the Great Phoenix, an elder fire spirit with the agenda "Burn the whole world to ashes so it can be purified and reborn as new, better world".

So, he used the sponsored magic to throw fireballs around and occasionally do rituals related to calling up fire spirits or performing cleansings and exorcisms (the "purifying fire" angle).  He often took debt in order to shore up his noticeably lacking controls rolls so he wouldn't scorch his friends.  Most of the time, he was a good guy, trying to protect innocents and not let his magic get too out of hand...

Of course, the Phoenix turned around and compelled that debt to make him do things like cast a whole-zone fireball when he'd really rather focus his attacks, or allow a failed roll to become Fallout, damaging the environment and burning down buildings instead of absorbing it as Backlash.

It was a fun character.

[sinker]

Personally I'd say it's a bit of both, and for unseelie magic it might matter a little less. I would use Soulfire as an example of a more restricting agenda. I would have a hard time allowing a character to use their Soulfire to go around slaughtering innocents and generally being evil (as that seems contrary to the white God's agenda). With unseelie magic the only restriction I might put on it would be using it against agents of the winter fae, and maybe not even all agents, just the important ones.

[Tedronai]

And things like this are why I really do dislike DFrpg's handling of Soulfire.  It's one of the few things in the system that bug me, but it just doesn't fit with the fiction.

[Papa Gruff]

Just out of curiosity: would you allow a player with Unseele magic to use it just like thaumaturgy? It came along like that in the OP. I ask because my view seems to differ a bit from that notion.

To me it's true that you can use Seele/Unseele magic in any way you seem fit like wednesdayboy discribed, for as long as it is in line with the theme of the sponsor. If you can get the hole spectrum of Thaumaturgy and Evocation though the sponsor that seems to be a bit counter intuitive to me. The rules kinda state it otherwise when they compare seele/unseele magic to picking up Channeling and Ritual (witch sums up to the -4 refresh cost). That said, in the case of Seele and Unseele magic shouldn't you restrict the use of Thaumaturgy in a similar way the Evocation part is restricted in line with the appropriate agenda?

[zenten]

Just out of curiosity: would you allow a player with Unseele magic to use it just like thaumaturgy? It came along like that in the OP. I ask because my view seems to differ a bit from that notion.

To me it's true that you can use Seele/Unseele magic in any way you seem fit like wednesdayboy discribed, for as long as it is in line with the theme of the sponsor. If you can get the hole spectrum of Thaumaturgy and Evocation though the sponsor that seems to be a bit counter intuitive to me. The rules kinda state it otherwise when they compare seele/unseele magic to picking up Channeling and Ritual (witch sums up to the -4 refresh cost). That said, in the case of Seele and Unseele magic shouldn't you restrict the use of Thaumaturgy in a similar way the Evocation part is restricted in line with the appropriate agenda?

I see it as thematically restricted but not restricted by agenda.  So if you want to use it to help the Summer Court you can, but it will still be Winter themed magic that you're using.

[Papa Gruff]

I see it as thematically restricted but not restricted by agenda.  So if you want to use it to help the Summer Court you can, but it will still be Winter themed magic that you're using.

That's kind of what I meant too.

An Example to clarify: Should the Summer Knight with his Seele Magic be allowed to do a tracking spell on just anyone? I'd say probably not. He may do a tracking but only on those who are the vassals of Summer or are Summer bound. Depending on how you look at it, it makes some sense canon wise and restricts the use of the thaumaturgy portion of "Seele Magic" in a way, so that it's not a cheaper but equally potent copy of thaumaturgy.

Opinions?

[EdgeOfDreams]

With the Thaumaturgy side of Sponsored Magic, a character should be able to do any Thaumaturgic spell that fits his or her sponsor's themes.

So, Seelie magic, you can do any thaumaturgy that relates to summer, fire, warmth, etc.  A tracking spell? Probably not, unless it's to track a summer-connected person, like you said.

[sinker]

Just out of curiosity: would you allow a player with Unseele magic to use it just like thaumaturgy? It came along like that in the OP. I ask because my view seems to differ a bit from that notion.

For me sponsored magic is like picking up evocation and thaumaturgy rather than channeling and ritual but with it's own limitations that effect it in different ways. One of the limitations is, as zenten responded, a thematic limitation. Another is the sponsor's agenda.

I would have a hard time with someone using unseelie magic to actively and directly benefit summer. As the fae can only work within their natures (and as their natures are to struggle against their counterparts) I have a hard time with power that is essentially an extension of one of the fae working against it's own nature. In effect (since the strengthening of summer is the weakening of winter) the power would be harming itself, lessening itself as it worked toward summer's agenda. Of course someone could work towards summer obliquely, helping them "by accident."

The last limitation, which is both a limitation and a benefit is the whole sponsor debt/compels.

An Example to clarify: Should the Summer Knight with his Seele Magic be allowed to do a tracking spell on just anyone?

I would say yes. As there is no real way of telling what may or may not benefit winter's agenda I'd give a character a pretty long leash. Of course it would also depend on the character. If they've fallen out of favor or hindered something in the past then maybe the fae trusts him less, and may put further restrictions on the power. As long as the character is in good standing with his sponsor then I'd say the sponsor likely trusts him to work toward their interests without constantly monitoring every little thing the character does and approving or vetoing every use of power.

Edit: Then again it would have to fit within the baliwick of the sponsor. I could see a "tracking spell" of a winter emmisary being flavored as calling up some fairy that tracks them for you or tells you where they've been. Of course if your sponsor is, say, the Erlking then it's probably much easier to explain a tracking spell within your baliwick.

[Papa Gruff]

Have to make an addendum to my previous post: obviously there is a way around only tracking those who are related to summer. Just stick something summer on them. It's obvious that a creative interpretation of the "rules" is very much fey.

[UmbraLux]

Since the books show an individual from one court betraying and acting against it, I don't see any problems at all with using basic sponsored magic however you wish (but see #3).  That said, there are three limitations:  1) it's themed - this limits trappings & how you do magic, 2) you can only go into debt if the spell promotes the sponsor's agenda, and 3) the sponsor can and will use debt to compel you to act according to its agenda and not against it.  So you're really only free to act contrary to an agenda if you're not in debt to your sponsor.