Grenade Punch

[devonapple]

That stunt sounds odd though, how did you explain in setting avoiding damage with Endurance? It sounds more like a power than a stunt.

That's the "Shrug it Off" stunt (or something like that). Simply replaces Endurance with Athletics for defending against an attack. Which means it may be even more appropriate in this case.

But one of the shenanigans in this maneuver is that the character is getting the benefit of a weapon without having the appropriate skill. I would have certainly wanted at least a Fate Point for the attack, perhaps invoking an Aspect about the character's Toughness, in the spirit of getting a one-time use of an imaginary Stunt that would allow that kind of a maneuver.

Also, having forgotten that Mythic Toughness isn't enough Armor to fully prevent damage from the grenade in the first place, I think a Consequence is probably a good compromise in this situation. Heck, in Superhero RPGs, getting to ignore damage from something under your armor value ("hardened," I think it's called in Mutants & Masterminds) is an additional advantage.

[ryanshowseason2]

Yah he has no way of avoiding the attack, but his fists roll should not be damaging himself any more he is not punching himself...

He is punching the other guy which damages him, then the grenade explodes which damages them both.

However weapon 4 was intended for a grenade that explodes in a lethal proximity with bonuses for placement when thrown.

I wouldn't feel bad about increasing the weapon rating for both of them, lying on a grenade would likely kill any normal mook straight up, soldiers with kevlar vests don't even stand a chance. I'd figure a respectable soldier on having endurance 4 and 4 health boxes, on top of that they'd have armor 2 for body armor. To fully take him out in one shot it'd be a 7 damage hit. So I'd say hit them both with weapon 7, him getting no defense roll but not taking any more from his fists roll.

[Gatts]

Yah he has no way of avoiding the attack, but his fists roll should not be damaging himself any more he is not punching himself...

He is punching the other guy which damages him, then the grenade explodes which damages them both.

However weapon 4 was intended for a grenade that explodes in a lethal proximity with bonuses for placement when thrown.

I wouldn't feel bad about increasing the weapon rating for both of them, lying on a grenade would likely kill any normal mook straight up, soldiers with kevlar vests don't even stand a chance. I'd figure a respectable soldier on having endurance 4 and 4 health boxes, on top of that they'd have armor 2 for body armor. To fully take him out in one shot it'd be a 7 damage hit. So I'd say hit them both with weapon 7, him getting no defense roll but not taking any more from his fists roll.

Sure, he's not punching himself, but this way he takes LESS damage than if someone had thrown a grenade at him. That hardly makes sense. Another solution would to be to have the attack default to fantastic, since he's actively holding it.

[Tedronai]

He's not, however, holding it in a manner such as to do the greatest possible damage.  In fact, far from it.  He's holding it in his hand, probably one of the fourth least critical points on the body when exposed to an effect of this sort.  He is presumably holding it with his arm significantly, if not fully extended, further sheltering the rest of his body from exposure.

[Gatts]

He's not, however, holding it in a manner such as to do the greatest possible damage.  In fact, far from it.  He's holding it in his hand, probably one of the fourth least critical points on the body when exposed to an effect of this sort.  He is presumably holding it with his arm significantly, if not fully extended, further sheltering the rest of his body from exposure.

The location is largely irrelevant, I think, a missing hand is still an Extreme consequence. All consequences he takes will of course apply to his hand, and perhaps lower arm, but the fact that he's clutching it means he's not avoiding damage, just making sure the damage is only applied to one location.

[Sanctaphrax]

This is a perfect example of why FATE is usually so abstract. Worrying about how to handle this will only bring you grief. Because if every weird action in combat needs special rules, then you`ll have problems every time your players get creative.

PS: Congratulations on your 1000th post, devonapple.

[Haru]

Wasn't there something about self-inflicted damage automatically satisfying any catch? I don't know where I read hat, it might have been a suggestion of someone on the forum. In that case, a weapon:4 attack would still really hurt your hulk despite his toughness.

[Tedronai]

Wasn't there something about self-inflicted damage automatically satisfying any catch? I don't know where I read hat, it might have been a suggestion of someone on the forum.

It was/is.

More aptly, payments made by means of a self-inflicted wound that does not satisfy a catch likely will not be sufficient payment.

[ways and means]

Wasn't there something about self-inflicted damage automatically satisfying any catch? I don't know where I read hat, it might have been a suggestion of someone on the forum. In that case, a weapon:4 attack would still really hurt your hulk despite his toughness.

That was a popular house rule to stop people power gaming magic by having toughness or regneration powers which allowed the character to take stupid amounts of backlash or to sacrafise concequences which they get back in 5 minutes time. It certainly wasn't designed to stop someone with mythic toughness doing stupid things like jumping off buildings etc because they can.

[ryanshowseason2]

Sure, he's not punching himself, but this way he takes LESS damage than if someone had thrown a grenade at him. That hardly makes sense. Another solution would to be to have the attack default to fantastic, since he's actively holding it.

 

But I'm saying it will do more damage than normal because he is holding it in the first place, and you forget that when someone throws something at you, you get a defense roll and can mitigate the opponents roll or avoid it entirely, so its quite debatable if you'd take more damage from having it thrown at you.

Basically my suggestion amounts to an auto 4 stress hit to the player after his toughness powers, which actually still seems a bit underpowered to me, I'd have him taking a moderate consequence at least. A basic mook should be taking an extreme consequence to survive but mythic toughness is 3 cuts above that in short, so moderate seems about fair.

[devonapple]

PS: Congratulations on your 1000th post, devonapple.

Thank you!

[stabbald]

This is a perfect example of why FATE is usually so abstract. Worrying about how to handle this will only bring you grief. Because if every weird action in combat needs special rules, then you`ll have problems every time your players get creative.

PS: Congratulations on your 1000th post, devonapple.

I think it's perfectly sensible to rule on things like this. If you don't, you run into the danger of allowing your players to create increasingly obscure attacks and bogging your game down in mind numbingly boring power gaming.

I'd deal with this attack in one of two ways.

1) If the character has both Mythic Toughness and atleast Supernatural Strength it would work much like a shaped charge with the vast amount of energy going through the BBEG as energy always seeks the path of least resistance. I'd treat it as a weapon 5 attack against the BBEG and 3 against the character, using fists to aim but NOT allowing extra shifts to increase damage as he's using a makeshift weapon that is not at all designed to be used that way and he's effectively (as described in the above scenario) merely shoving the guy with it rather than using a closed fist.

2) If he has the toughness but lower strength then the above would still happen but the character would need to spend a fate point to keep his hand closed around the grenade AND would gain at the very least a severe consequence of dislocated hand (just because he can take the punishment doesn't mean he has the strength to avoid a powerful explosion from ripping his fingers out of their sockets).

[Tedronai]

Why is the active character in your scenario, stabbald, taking less damage from the grenade by holding it in their hand while it explodes? (a grenade is normally weapon:4, against everyone in the zone, but this character, by holding it, is treating it as a weapon:3?)

[stabbald]

Why is the active character in your scenario, stabbald, taking less damage from the grenade by holding it in their hand while it explodes? (a grenade is normally weapon:4, against everyone in the zone, but this character, by holding it, is treating it as a weapon:3?)

The side holding the grenade is stronger so the force generated is forced in the other direction. This is sound physics and is the reason shaped charges work.

Keep in mind I specified that the character in question would need to have massive strength as well as toughness for this to work.

[ryanshowseason2]

The side holding the grenade is stronger so the force generated is forced in the other direction. This is sound physics and is the reason shaped charges work.

Keep in mind I specified that the character in question would need to have massive strength as well as toughness for this to work.

I think the argument though is that it doesn't need to be decreased in weapon damage against the player though, the grenade is still the same power. But the player has mythic toughness so he already has 3 armor so for him most of the damage goes away.

At weapon 3 the player doesn't receive any kind of damage whatsoever since armor 3 completely cancels it out... GM might still give him that broken fingers consequence but.. I don't like it...

A thrown grenade that hit the player would damage him for 1 but you're saying a grenade he is holding in his hand won't damage him at all? I think you forgot about the armor 3...