An Actual Shield (As in Sword and Board)??

[arsieiuni]

Hey guys,

So, how the hell do you represent if someone is fighting with an honest-to-goodness shield? As in a big piece of wood or metal attached to their arm to deflect blows?

We tried doing it as armor1 and it felt overpowered since there's no penalties for armor (that we can find). We tried doing it as a +1 to athletics for the purposes of defending. Also felt overpowered.
We tried doing it as a block = to half the wielder's athletics and it felt useless.

So ... any idea how to give a character a shield and have it make the difference a shield should make without making them utterly untouchable?


Thanks

[UmbraLux]

As a declared aspect.  Presuming success, the player would get one free tag and spend fate for the shield to have a greater affect on the story.

[ways and means]

Or you could require a stunt to use one of the previous solutions.

[BumblingBear]

Why is adding +1 to athletics overpowered?

The way I would run it is adding +2 to weapons to block, but not to attack.  If the shield is supernatural or the character is, I would allow them to block ranged attacks for no bonus, but it would be possible.

Using a shield in a fight DOES make a person seem invincible to someone who does not have one.  There's a reason they were used.

[Cyberchihuahua]

Model it after a suit of armor. What material is it made of, what kind of damage it protects against, cost, etc. Then turn it into a shield, and grant double its armor rating -1 as a bonus to blocks. Basically the way enchanted work, but with mundane materials.

[Haru]

Well, the idea of a shield is to make you untouchable. If anyone has the chance to join a LARP, try to form a line of shields and approach a group of others to attack them. Even if they are double in numbers, they won't know what hit them, because you are just not going to be able to get through that freaking wall in front of them.

On the other hand, a shield is a huge wall not only in front of those who want to hit you, but also in front of yourself, so you are not going to hit everyone as easy as if you were able to move around without that thing slowing you down and blocking your movement.

So you could implement a stunt like this:

Sword and Shield:
You have learned to use your shield to protect yourself from an attack against you which gives you a +1 to any defense roll. If you took advantage of your shield like that in an exchange, any attack you try to do is made at -1. If you made an attack before you had to make a defense roll and did not apply the -1 penalty, you are not able to bring up the full defense of your shield this exchange, thus do not gain the +1 bonus.

[BumblingBear]

Well, the idea of a shield is to make you untouchable. If anyone has the chance to join a LARP, try to form a line of shields and approach a group of others to attack them. Even if they are double in numbers, they won't know what hit them, because you are just not going to be able to get through that freaking wall in front of them.

On the other hand, a shield is a huge wall not only in front of those who want to hit you, but also in front of yourself, so you are not going to hit everyone as easy as if you were able to move around without that thing slowing you down and blocking your movement.

So you could implement a stunt like this:

Sword and Shield:
You have learned to use your shield to protect yourself from an attack against you which gives you a +1 to any defense roll. If you took advantage of your shield like that in an exchange, any attack you try to do is made at -1. If you made an attack before you had to make a defense roll and did not apply the -1 penalty, you are not able to bring up the full defense of your shield this exchange, thus do not gain the +1 bonus.

This is a little too crunchy for me and not nearly powerful enough.

Using a shield does not make attacks weaker.  It makes them stronger because you can know exactly where an opponent's weapon is when they try to strike you, allowing you to commit more to attacks.

To me, the disadvantages to using a shield are:

1. They stand out in the modern world.  'Nuff said.

2.  Depending on the material, they can be broken.

3.  Most are large.  In fact, I'd give a buckler a +1 to defend, a heater shield a +2 to defend, and a tower shield or kite shield a +3 to defend.  The kite and tower shield would not make supplemental moves possible anymore, though.

4.  They stand out and make the bearer a target.

It makes sense to me to make shields that powerful.  I mean, even a ghoul would have trouble getting around a shield wielded by an untrained vanilla mortal.  Sure, they could grab it, but they'd probably be getting cut up a lot in the process.

I think it makes sense to add the shield to a block rather than armor too because.

A.  Blocking with a shield takes skill and is an active sort of thing - not passive.

B.  Attacks that get past the shield can still hit armor and do no damage.

[TheMouse]

I like shields as armour. A buckler is armour:1, a meter wide round metal shield is armour:2, and one of those bloody big shields you more or less brace on the ground and stand behind is armour:3. This doesn't stack with normal armour, because that would be broke-sauce.

Most shields are likely to have a weapon damage rating comparable to their armour rating. A dude with just a shield is NOT helpless.

[devonapple]

Sword and Shield:
You have learned to use your shield to protect yourself from an attack against you which gives you a +1 to any defense roll. If you took advantage of your shield like that in an exchange, any attack you try to do is made at -1. If you made an attack before you had to make a defense roll and did not apply the -1 penalty, you are not able to bring up the full defense of your shield this exchange, thus do not gain the +1 bonus.

A shield can be as limiting or as fluid as needed in terms of the story flow. Harry's Shield spell is traditionally described as a shield of energy, but the game mechanics list it as a regular Evocation Block, with no modifications for whether or not he attacks/defends/etc. Since shields tend to come into play at appropriate times, one *could* simple tag a melee-focused Aspect for a bonus and say it is because of a shield.

One could also say a Shield is simply a Weapons Maneuver, coming into play as often as the player either pays Fate Points or recreates the Maneuver.

Or, here's an additional idea:

"Shield Use:
You are trained in the use of a shield. This allows you to use your Weapons skill to set up a Block as a supplemental action in the same round that you are using an attack or taking another action (see YS XXXX for penalties of performing supplemental actions). If you are using the Full Defense option, you get a simple +2 to your Defense roll."

Does that sound too powerful, or is it a decent option?

[EdgeOfDreams]

We tried doing it as armor1 and it felt overpowered since there's no penalties for armor (that we can find).

Well, yes, there are no mechanical penalties for armor.  There's just the plot effects.  Such as if you have to deal with the police - kevlar vests are nice, but they sure make it look like you were *Planning* to get in to trouble.

I'm surprised though that you found Armor 1 to be overpowered.  In fact, +1 to Athletics for dodging is substantially better than Armor 1, because you're less likely to get hit in the first place, and even if you do get hit, you've still negated 1 more stress than your roll otherwise would have.

I usually let players wear kevlar or other Armor 1 or 2 items, with the understanding that, as the book says, no armor protects against all attacks equally.  Kevlar vests suck against fireballs, for example.  Make sure you take this into account with a shield.

Also, Armor ratings don't stack with each other, nor do they stack with Toughness powers.  So, someone wearing a kevlar vest (Armor 1) and wielding a small shield (Armor 1) is still only at Armor 1 total, but that Armor rating will apply against a larger variety of attacks.

[Peteman]

I would allow it to make Weapon Blocks that wouldn't normally be allowed, and maybe a +1 Weapon for the purpose of defending.

[Tedronai]

I'd recommend against anything that breaks the action economy, but I like the idea of using a shield as a supplemental action (though perhaps during the subsequent turn, so that a worn-and-ready shield can indeed be used in a failed-at-the-last-moment ambush)

[Haru]

A shield can be as limiting or as fluid as needed in terms of the story flow. Harry's Shield spell is traditionally described as a shield of energy, but the game mechanics list it as a regular Evocation Block, with no modifications for whether or not he attacks/defends/etc. Since shields tend to come into play at appropriate times, one *could* simple tag a melee-focused Aspect for a bonus and say it is because of a shield.

Using a shield does not make attacks weaker.  It makes them stronger because you can know exactly where an opponent's weapon is when they try to strike you, allowing you to commit more to attacks.

Well I was trying to model my LARP shield experience into the stunt, which kind of was like "If I keep up the shield, I am much harder to hit, but if I try to hit someone, I have to open up my shield to be able to land". Plus, Harry's shield is magic, so it does not really count.

One could also say a Shield is simply a Weapons Maneuver, coming into play as often as the player either pays Fate Points or recreates the Maneuver.

Which would make a shield not really that helpfull.

Or, here's an additional idea:

"Shield Use:
You are trained in the use of a shield. This allows you to use your Weapons skill to set up a Block as a supplemental action in the same round that you are using an attack or taking another action (see YS XXXX for penalties of performing supplemental actions). If you are using the Full Defense option, you get a simple +2 to your Defense roll."

Does that sound too powerful, or is it a decent option?

I like this one, because it takes into account both the active part of blocking and the difficulty of concentrating on both attacking and blocking at once. Great job.

[Tedronai]

Perhaps as a modification to devonapple's stunt, allowing the user to 'spray' their action between attacking and blocking with a weapons roll as a supplemental action, gaining a +2 bonus to that roll, with at least 2 shifts going to the block?

It still might be a bit on the strong side of things, but I'd say it'd be a lot better than the prior version.

[devonapple]

Perhaps as a modification to devonapple's stunt, allowing the user to 'spray' their action between attacking and blocking with a weapons roll as a supplemental action, gaining a +2 bonus to that roll, with at least 2 shifts going to the block?

If it becomes a Spray maneuver, I'd want to remove the Supplemental Action penalty altogether. But if the original is too powerful, asking a player to split their skill between attack and defense sounds to me like a decent compromise.

In fact, we may opt to simply abstract the Stunt as:

"Defensively Trained:
You may use an Attack skill (Fists, Weapons) to Attack as well as create a Block (versus attacks against yourself) during the same exchange. Split the effort (skill ranks + roll result) of your action between the two effects as per the Spray Attack rules (YS XXX). If you have an appropriate defensive item (shield, main-gauche, tonfa, nightstick) which you are not also using to attack, you gain a +1 to the Block roll, and if you spend the exchange using a Full Defense action, you add +2 to the normal Full Defense bonus (see YS p XXX)."