Fighting with keys--how would it work?

[arianne]

Two questions:

1) Was it a milk carton or a milk jug? Makes a difference.
2) How many keys were on the ring? Also makes a difference.

1) It was a milk carton. Not a very thick milk carton either.

2) Perhaps six or seven--not heavy keys, just normal office keys.


Somehow it's depressing to realize that 30 seconds of badly-shot-cell-phone video of people fighting on the street can take pages and pages of description to convey...and even then there willl be readers who'll take the cell phone vid over your blood and sweat 

[OZ]

In a serious fight LL had the best advice. Run and hope you can catch them one at a time. Keys are going to be most effective to take out one fighter before they realise that you are using them or to use as a distraction. If they are on a chain ( common with bike or motorcycle riders as well as janitors and such) they can be swung like a mini spiked flail at someone's eyes or face and do some damage although again this is a trick that you will probably only get away with once.

[Shecky]

1) It was a milk carton. Not a very thick milk carton either.

2) Perhaps six or seven--not heavy keys, just normal office keys.


Somehow it's depressing to realize that 30 seconds of badly-shot-cell-phone video of people fighting on the street can take pages and pages of description to convey...and even then there willl be readers who'll take the cell phone vid over your blood and sweat 

I tried the same thing about 30 years ago. I finally realized, after experiencing the same non-event that you saw, that in order for it to be more accurate, the carton must be backed up against something unmoving in order to replicate the conditions of the human face (because the head doesn't just skitter off at the slightest contact). I would've done it with milk in the carton, but my mother would've killed me. And yeah, it did work. Nothing spectacular, just a few little holes - which would've been nasty in the case of eyelids and eyes.

[Mickey Finn]

The rocket propelled chainsaw is AWESOME.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

It's easier to get a good swing if you use the whole keyboard.

[trboturtle]

Here's something to think about.....

I have my keys on a laynard. In part because I can hang them around my neck if I need to, but in a life or death case, it could become an improvised flail. It does have an advange in reach, plus the ability to throw them on someone face, then yank back and repeat the process. Moight be really useful if there a dozen or so keys to give it some heft.

Craig

[Agravaine]

So took Karate for awhile -- from the can't breath you can't fight kind of guy, not Mr. Miagi.  All the moves were absolutely ruthless and brutal -- one action designed to incapacitate one person -- throat, knees, groin.

Anyway, the key to fighting more than one (assuming they have no firearms, if so forget it) is to stay on the "outside" of the fight and make the incapacitated obstacles.

[ajax]

I've been a martial arts instructor for about 8 years now, and have studied a pretty large range of styles from modern combatives to more traditional Eastern styles.    I have to agree with Agravaine's post about the key to fighting multiple opponents is to use them as obstacles.  I am going to assume this is some type of self defense situation, because keys aren't a very good sparring weapon? 

How I would handle a situation like that, is first figure out where the escape route would be.  Try to move that direction as much as possible, while making certain none of the opponents get between me and that path.  Throw the keys underhanded/sidearm (almost like throwing a frisbee) at the persons face/neck area while rushing forward.  If it hits, it hurts, and may cut, it's not going to "take someone out" but its a very good distraction.  While rushing in try to get the person you distracted in a hold with their head lower than you, but still standing, so that you can move them around keeping the person trapped in between you and the other people.  While doing this, throw knees and punches to the persons torso area, and then shove them into the next closest person and run towards the escape route you figured out earlier screaming "Take him to the Hospital!".  People will stop to check out their friend, whether they actually need to get medical attention or not. 

The main focus is to keep them from working together until the point that their cooperation is no longer focused on you.

[Quantus]

Plenty of others have chimed in with the more generic martial artist/self defense answers to fighting multiple opponents, so Im not going to bother adding to that. 

With regards to using keys in a fight.  Keys are useful in one of 3 ways:

-Spiked fist - pinch the keys between your fingers while gripping something sturdy (flashlight, solid keychain, etc) in your fist as a support.  This is basically a ripping version of a Brass knuckle. Makes punches more damaging esp. crosses, hooks, and other attacks with a sideways element tot he motion to allow of ripping/raking of exposed flesh.  Not very useful vs heavy clothing. 

-Thrown Weapon - Most common, but a one-off.  Not going to cause heavy damage unless you really get a powerfull throw.  If the guy is charging you and you have time for a fastball to the face, could be devestating.  But most likely its main use will be as a distraction.  Get them to flich away from something coming at their face, and you get time to either close and fight or break and run. 

-Flail - If you can put the keys on a string, a lanyard, in a sock, etc it becomes a fairly effective swinging weapon; decent mass, sharp surfaces, controllable length etc.  Given no combat training, 4-1 odds, and no other weapon at hand, this would be my choice of weapon if for no other reason than it would be enough of a threat to psychologically hold off some of the attackers enough for you to keep them form digpiling you. 



If its not a serious throw-down, hospitalize-whomever-you-can sort of fight don't bother bringing them in as more than a distraction.  Only damage to some of the more fragile and debilitating human parts (like eyes) are going to drop somebody long enough to make it worth while.  The average person without training should probably pick up a stick, pipe, or other base clubbing instrument

[Vryce]

[arianne]

I'm imagining what a guy swinging a bunch of keys would look like in a fight...and it looks kind of tough and I'm actually liking it!

Of course, it's not as cool as, say, throwing a fireball (nudge nudge Harry Dresden), but hey, whatever you've got...

[Breandan]

Addressing targets- Martial arts generally teaches one to disable an opponent, by and large, and not kill them outright (not including the Sambo/Krav Maga crowd here, who are very happy to inflict lethal damage) as it is often taught from a defensive point of view. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, and I am a happy student of Aikido because it gives me the less-lethal options for taking down an opponent. However, I work overseas a lot where kind-and-fluffy gets you killed, thus I also study Krav for the opposite reason, and you pick up some VERY nasty, brutal and incapacitating/lethal techniques. Here's some key pointers born of that when it comes to targets-

1) Neck: While it might seem to be a choice target, the neck is surprisingly resilient and hard to find a vital spot with a small puncture-based weapon. I've seen an operator shot through-and-through in the neck by a 7.62x39 round, and the SOB was still up and kicking, trying to return fire. Keys are much more blunt than knives and such, and might not even get through the skin. There are many layers to the skin and sub-skin structures- dermis, sub-dermis, cutaneous (fat-tissue) and subcutaneous membranes- before you even get to the muscle and primary blood vessels. The chances of getting through all of that and hitting something vital- carotid, jugular, trachea, etc.- make it a difficult target to ensure lethality or incapacitation on, and that's not even taking into account reflexive defensive tucking and blocking.

2) Eyes: Excellent target, if a bit hard to hit. Gripping the keys in the fist where they stick out like punch-daggers, you can strike the eyes with moderate success. Despite being hard to hit due to size and reflexive defenses on the part of the opponent, it is a priority target due to being a fight-ender. Most people will desperately want to be somewhere else when their eye is put out. It's a psychological blow as much- if not more than- a physical one, as the eye does not repair itself to usefulness again and humans reflexively freak the hell out when they lose one.

3) Groin: Due to jeans and other clothing, the groin is a bad target for something as blunt as keys. Knives, spikes, 16 penny nails, etc. are all viable since they can punch through the clothing, but keys are generally too blunt. However, if clothing is not an issue for whatever reason, the groin on a male is a prime target. Behind the... danglies, shall we say, is a knot of blood vessels, including high-volume arteries that feed into the femoral. Puncture these, and your target is toast. There are no pressure points or tourniquet application points to stem the arterial bloodflow in that area, and your target will bleed out into unconsciousness in under a minute.

4) Hands: Something people really don't think about with key-fighting is the hands. Rap a ring of keys across the knuckles, and it stings. Stab keys into the hand from the top, and you could incapacitate them.

just a few items for thought

[Glorificus]

^ ^ Thank you for the point-by-point assassin lesson, B!!!!  ^ ^   

[arianne]

The thing (for me), is that I think in real life when most people fight, it's kind of like a blur of events, and you never really remember much when it's over. Some people talk about how they have a laserlike focus in the moment of the fight, but I was wondering how possible that was?

Humans kind of need to absorb actions, and then mull it over for a bit before performing counteractions--exceptions being like when you touch a hot pot and your hand jumps back without your having to think about it. But that's more about removing yourself from harm, and less about attacking someone, which does require a certain amount of brain work.

And yes, very neatly put "How to kill someone 101", Breandan!!

[jeno]

Some people talk about how they have a laserlike focus in the moment of the fight, but I was wondering how possible that was?

Right, so I've never had formal training in how to hurt someone (unless you count five years of ballet, which at least made me more coordinated). But when I got into fights it was less that I was thinking of what to do than that I was seeing, if that makes sense. And that state of semi-thinking upped my reaction time a lot.

In a fight, once it became clear that "oh shit, I'm in trouble," I started to notice things I didn't really pay attention to normally. Like the position of the other person's hands, where they were looking, if they were bigger than me, how close the walls were, etc. It wasn't that I was sitting back and pondering, "hm, should I kick his right shin or his left?" I was just suddenly more aware of my physical situation and with that awareness some actions I could take became obvious.

I think that's what the whole 'laser focus' phenomenon is - the sudden attention to previously extraneous information that is abruptly Very Very Important. It's not that you're cataloging all the details of your attacker and the environment on the spot. You already knew they were there. You just filtered them out because they weren't important. As soon as you become aware of those details, you (hopefully) become more sensitive to smaller changes, such as if your attacker shifts his weight to kick or throw a punch.

And once all that happens (thanks, adrenaline!) you really don't need to mull over your potential actions. Just go for the weak spots and get the hell out if you can.

(I'm making all this sound really wordy and pretentious, but it's the only way I can explain it.  sorry! )