Fighting with keys--how would it work?

[arianne]

Okay, this is going to sound stupid, but in one of JB's books, Harry says that you can take a bunch of keys and toss them at a milk carton, and chances are the milk carton will crack.

I tried this on a milk carton.

It didn't work

But anyway, I heard from somewhere that keys are a really good weapon to have in a fight (street fight), but the only thing I can think of doing with them is throwing them into someone's face (and then running like mad to get away from said person  ).

Is there some other way to use them?

The fighter concerned is a teenager of slight build, so don't expect feats of great strength or anything like that from him. In the scene I'm working on, he's fighting four people, of about the same height and weight, with only a pair of keys.

Suggestions?

[jeno]

It's better if you have multiple keys on one ring. Basically you make a fist around the ring and the keys slot between your fingers. You can use it as a slashing weapon. You could also stab into vulnerable places, like the eyes or ears.

That's why a lot of women walk with their keys in their hand when they're alone on the street.


eta: keys are not a good weapon to use against four people. All they'd have to do is immobilize your arms and you're screwed.

[library lasciel]

Okay, this is going to sound stupid, but in one of JB's books, Harry says that you can take a bunch of keys and toss them at a milk carton, and chances are the milk carton will crack.

I tried this on a milk carton.

It didn't work

But anyway, I heard from somewhere that keys are a really good weapon to have in a fight (street fight), but the only thing I can think of doing with them is throwing them into someone's face (and then running like mad to get away from said person  ).

Is there some other way to use them?

The fighter concerned is a teenager of slight build, so don't expect feats of great strength or anything like that from him. In the scene I'm working on, he's fighting four people, of about the same height and weight, with only a pair of keys.

Suggestions?

Is he sparring, or is this a serious fight?  If sparring, take a look at some martial arts videos on YouTube, and see how the multiple-attack training katas or free-spar sessions look.  People who are attacking take turns at the defender, they broadcast their intentions clearly, and they cycle through the attacks from various points instead of all attacking at once from everywhere.

If it's a serious fight, then there are harder choices to make.

Does he HAVE to win?  What does winning mean?  Does he simply get away from them?  Does he have to defeat them utterly?  Does he simply make it so much trouble and pain to get him that they back off because no one wants to mess with the crazy person?

With all that in mind, here are a few concrete suggestions, aimed at a believable ACTUAL fight.

Suggestion 1 - have him outrun at least 2 of the 4 dudes before the actual fight.  Better if he's able to outrun/outmaneuver at least 3 - maybe after running from 2 of them, he ducks into an alley which is so narrow that only one person can fit through at a time. 

Instant one-on-one for the fighting, but still has the power of the multiple attack - the suspense of the chase "Oh good, he finally lost Goon 2!  Oh no, Goon 1 has come around the block on a motorcycle and is gunning for him again!"  and then the suspense of the actual fight  "Will he have enough strength left to fight Goon 3 after running so hard?  Yay!  He beat Goon 3!  But uh-oh, now Goon 4 is climbing over his buddy's body and coming in again - now what?" 

Suggestion 2 - Find some reason for the bad guys to seriously underestimate his abilities from the start, so they are caught off-guard when he actually turns and fights.  That underestimation makes fighting two opponents a little more realistic. 

(Very rarely, even with trained martial artists, does one person win against multiple attackers, and when it happens, it's usually because the groups or pairs of attackers weren't really trying their utmost from the start because they outnumbered the victim.  Expand and elaborate on their superiority (in their own minds) and then use that overconfidence against them.)

Suggestion 3 - Take a serious thought at the concept of berserkers.  There's a reason Wolverine is named after that particular animal, and it isn't because of its SIZE.  Not many people want to tangle with something crazy.  That's a deep primal instinct people have to steer clear of odd behaviour. 

Think of rabid animals.  A rabid rat isn't that big, and rats usually run from humans.  But if this rat's gone round the bend, it will attack, and that's not NORMAL for that small thing.  If tiny dude is freaking out and throwing himself into the fight with everything he's got, that makes the Goons wonder; "oookaaay, what is tiny dude ON, and why is he growling at me?"  These are not confidence-inspiring questions.

Whatever mechanics and improvised weapons you use then will be more believable automatically, because the SITUATION they're in is more believable.  Because of the setup, people will more readily keep on following you down the "Hey, did you know keys are a kickass improvised weapon?" path, regardless of the details.


Good luck!   

[Shecky]

It's better if you have multiple keys on one ring. Basically you make a fist around the ring and the keys slot between your fingers. You can use it as a slashing weapon. You could also stab into vulnerable places, like the eyes or ears.

That's why a lot of women walk with their keys in their hand when they're alone on the street.


eta: keys are not a good weapon to use against four people. All they'd have to do is immobilize your arms and you're screwed.

No more screwed than being keyless with one's arms immobilized, to be honest. Feet are great weapons, and the heeled shoe is a step up (no pun intended) from that - big clunky heel vs. toes, or spikey heel vs. top or instep, it's a big attention-diverter for the person doing the immobilizing. Using every available resource as a weapon is a strong step towards effective self-defense.

[arianne]

Is he sparring, or is this a serious fight?  If sparring, take a look at some martial arts videos on YouTube, and see how the multiple-attack training katas or free-spar sessions look.  People who are attacking take turns at the defender, they broadcast their intentions clearly, and they cycle through the attacks from various points instead of all attacking at once from everywhere.

If it's a serious fight, then there are harder choices to make.

Does he HAVE to win?  What does winning mean?  Does he simply get away from them?  Does he have to defeat them utterly?  Does he simply make it so much trouble and pain to get him that they back off because no one wants to mess with the crazy person?

With all that in mind, here are a few concrete suggestions, aimed at a believable ACTUAL fight.

Suggestion 1 - have him outrun at least 2 of the 4 dudes before the actual fight.  Better if he's able to outrun/outmaneuver at least 3 - maybe after running from 2 of them, he ducks into an alley which is so narrow that only one person can fit through at a time. 

Instant one-on-one for the fighting, but still has the power of the multiple attack - the suspense of the chase "Oh good, he finally lost Goon 2!  Oh no, Goon 1 has come around the block on a motorcycle and is gunning for him again!"  and then the suspense of the actual fight  "Will he have enough strength left to fight Goon 3 after running so hard?  Yay!  He beat Goon 3!  But uh-oh, now Goon 4 is climbing over his buddy's body and coming in again - now what?" 

Suggestion 2 - Find some reason for the bad guys to seriously underestimate his abilities from the start, so they are caught off-guard when he actually turns and fights.  That underestimation makes fighting two opponents a little more realistic. 

(Very rarely, even with trained martial artists, does one person win against multiple attackers, and when it happens, it's usually because the groups or pairs of attackers weren't really trying their utmost from the start because they outnumbered the victim.  Expand and elaborate on their superiority (in their own minds) and then use that overconfidence against them.)

Suggestion 3 - Take a serious thought at the concept of berserkers.  There's a reason Wolverine is named after that particular animal, and it isn't because of its SIZE.  Not many people want to tangle with something crazy.  That's a deep primal instinct people have to steer clear of odd behaviour. 

Think of rabid animals.  A rabid rat isn't that big, and rats usually run from humans.  But if this rat's gone round the bend, it will attack, and that's not NORMAL for that small thing.  If tiny dude is freaking out and throwing himself into the fight with everything he's got, that makes the Goons wonder; "oookaaay, what is tiny dude ON, and why is he growling at me?"  These are not confidence-inspiring questions.

Whatever mechanics and improvised weapons you use then will be more believable automatically, because the SITUATION they're in is more believable.  Because of the setup, people will more readily keep on following you down the "Hey, did you know keys are a kickass improvised weapon?" path, regardless of the details.


Good luck!   

At this point, he's just sparring, not serious save-the-world-Harry-Dresden fighting.

I kind of like the crazy rat idea, because you're right that people get scared by unexpected reactions. Especially coming from someone who would normally be scared by the situation.

Thanks!

[Nickeris86]

My fencing Mystro held classes on how to use normal everyday items as deadly weapons. this included keys, pens, mini flashlights, scarves, hankerchifes, and even rolls of coins.

I'm sure you could find videos on these techniques on Youtube or on personal defense web sights. Keep in mind that a lot of self defense techniques are really only useful in escaping a grappling situation not an actual fist fight.

[Shecky]

Okay, this is going to sound stupid, but in one of JB's books, Harry says that you can take a bunch of keys and toss them at a milk carton, and chances are the milk carton will crack.

I tried this on a milk carton.

It didn't work

Two questions:

1) Was it a milk carton or a milk jug? Makes a difference.
2) How many keys were on the ring? Also makes a difference.

[Glorificus]

Okay, this is going to sound stupid, but in one of JB's books, Harry says that you can take a bunch of keys and toss them at a milk carton, and chances are the milk carton will crack.

I tried this on a milk carton.

A paper carton could have a hole punched in it if the point of the key had enough force behind it, with "toss" doesn't suggest to me. If the milk was in a glass bottle, there are higher odds of breakage, imo.

[Paynesgrey]

I'm not seeing the keys doing much good other than for a sucker jab at the eye of one attacker.  Sort of trick that loses it's utility after the other 3 see it though, unless your hero has Big Damn Heroic Reflexes and Speed or somesuch.

[Shecky]

I'm not seeing the keys doing much good other than for a sucker jab at the eye of one attacker.  Sort of trick that loses it's utility after the other 3 see it though, unless your hero has Big Damn Heroic Reflexes and Speed or somesuch.

The way I learned it was as a distraction that you could easily get lucky with, but for which the prime advantage is buying you the time while the target is flinching for you to take a shot at a knee or john thomas or something.

[Vryce]

Its standard self defense strategy.  1st part) shock, a Kick to the face or any fleshy part puts you attacker off balance.  2) the move, what ever other move you need to do to effect damage or get away.  3) Run away, if you have a good self defense teacher this is the ending to the self defense. 

Self defense is different from combat.

On a side note, the key to my car is about 2 inches long, locked tightly in my hand between fingers it would do a lot of damage at the head/throat area.  Even crippling damage to any joint area. 

[Paynesgrey]

*Decides just to hang his keys from his Mossberg JIC.*

"That?  That's a Zombie Opener, officer.  You want one?  I've got some spares...*

[Shecky]

*Decides just to hang his keys from his Mossberg JIC.*

"That?  That's a Zombie Opener, officer.*

And here's a Swiss Army Gun:

[Vryce]

I so want one....!!!! 

[Enjorous]

I want two for my ZAV