Author Topic: Fishing for ideas: Outsiders in a Submerged-level game [No Law Talk, Please]  (Read 7176 times)

Offline Belial666

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I wonder if nuclear weapons would even annoy an Old One. The more powerful Outsiders tend to have physical immunity bypassed only by faith powers and special abjurations (banishments and wardings). If Nicodemus can survive a nuke then some Outer God certainly could.

Offline Tedronai

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I'm a firm believer that even a near-direct hit from a nuclear blast wouldn't stoop so low as to deal physical stress.
So I ask you: What happens when a plot-device power faces off against a plot-device power? 
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Offline stabbald

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I'm a firm believer that even a near-direct hit from a nuclear blast wouldn't stoop so low as to deal physical stress.
So I ask you: What happens when a plot-device power faces off against a plot-device power? 
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Not all plot devices are equal.

White God versus Erlking? That fight would be over so fast that no one would even notice that it had begun.

Offline Belial666

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Do note that Nicodemus' writeup specifically mentions nukes - and that power coming from a 2000-year-old artifact, not an Outer God older than the world.


Also note that beings with Archangel or Faerie Mother levels of power can be a lot more destructive than a nuke. The energy released by the average hurricane in ten seconds about equals a one-megaton nuke. Consider now that the Mothers are an order of magnitude stronger than Mab and that Mab can do a lot more than an average hurricane.

Similarly, the eruption of the Krakatoa was four times as powerful as the greatest nuclear weapon ever detonated. And a high-council wizard did it.

Offline ryanshowseason2

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Similarly, the eruption of the Krakatoa was four times as powerful as the greatest nuclear weapon ever detonated. And a high-council wizard did it.

And a high-council wizard did it.


a wizard did it.

teehee

Offline Becq

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It might be worth considering the concentration and placement of destructive capabilities.  A hurricane, for example, represents a massive release of energy ... but one spread out over many thousands of square miles.  An exploding volcano is well-focused, but how often is there a primed volcano ready to be uncorked by a modest ritual just where you need it?  (In this case, under the outsider monstrosity?)  Note, by the way, that the volcanic explosion wasn't "created" by the wizard, he simply triggered (very efficiently, by the way) an explosion that nature was already well on the path toward making.

On the other hand, a nuclear submarine with, say, two dozen Tridents carrying 14 half-MT warheads (about 160MT or so) can release a total destructive force that rivals Krakatoa, divided into 336 convenient parcels that can each release in an instant the power of a hurricane, but radiating out from a single point rather than dispersed over tens of thousands of square miles.  And those 336 points can be placed anywhere, with an accuracy of about a football field.

All of that, released by a mere mundane human.

A mere human.

I think that the precision and concentration of such an attack bears consideration.  But would that kind of power be enough to waste an Old One?  Even if all 336 warheads could be simultaneously detonated on its head?  I have no idea.  Both the Old One and the nuclear sub are plot devices, and what happens when they meet depends more on the needs of the story being created than anything else.  Perhaps a large enough nuke might destroy the Old One's protoplasmic form, sending its (mythically ticked off!) essence reeling back into the far reaches of the Nevernever.  Or, on the other hand ... well, ever seen The Fifth Element?

Offline Tedronai

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I think that the precision and concentration of such an attack bears consideration.  But would that kind of power be enough to waste an Old One?  Even if all 336 warheads could be simultaneously detonated on its head?  I have no idea.  Both the Old One and the nuclear sub are plot devices, and what happens when they meet depends more on the needs of the story being created than anything else.  Perhaps a large enough nuke might destroy the Old One's protoplasmic form, sending its (mythically ticked off!) essence reeling back into the far reaches of the Nevernever.  Or, on the other hand ... well, ever seen The Fifth Element?

And thus, as I said, plot wins.  No rolls, no numbers.  Just plot.
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Offline Becq

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As to the original story question, perhaps something along these lines:

* The warlock manages to summon the Old One, who in turn opens portals that begin vomiting smaller monstrosities.
* The police are helpless and are all but wiped out.
* The military is called in.  Tanks seems to be capably of damaging the smaller stuff, but with hideous and unsustainable losses.
* The government, flailing for a solution, authorizes a nuclear strike.  Just before the missile hits, a dome of roiling energy several miles across materializes.  Everything outside of the dome is flattened by the nuke, but when the dust clears there is a perfectly circular section of the city completely intact.
* The players, at a loss as to how to stop the madness, are somehow able to learn that the summoning ritual involved tying together the essences of the Old One and the warlock (possibly as a bid by the warlock to control the Old One).  This is the weakness they need.  
* The players fight their way through the lesser outsiders, create a diversion to seperate the Old One from the warlock, then attack and manage to destroy the Warlock in an epic battle.
* The Old One makes an appearance a moment too late ... but to all appearances is unaffected by the warlock's death.  (It has been significantly weakened, it's grip on existence in the real world is slipping, however.)
* By this time, a second (massive) nuclear strike is en route.  The players are still no match for the creature, but manage to distract it just enough that the nuclear strike gets through.  Thanks to the players' actions, the beast's body is vaporized, it's essence banished back to it's home plane.

The players have been destroyed, but their sacrifice has saved the world (well, except for the city).  The End.

Or is it?  Perhaps a few of the lesser outsiders managed to escape the blast, either by getting far enough away, or by burrowing.  Perhaps this will plant the seeds for the next campaign...

Offline devonapple

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My original (and unspoken, my apologies for the confusion) thought about nukes was whether or not groups like the Venators would risk deploying them to avoid such Outsider intrusions.

For instance, say they Know someone is summoning something. They Know roughly where it will be, but the heroes can't, won't, or simply fail to get in there to stop it. Is nuking the area something they would keep on the table as an option? Is it something they would always have as a standard backup plan?
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Offline Tedronai

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I'm pretty sure only villains ever have nukes as a 'standard backup plan'.  An option that's technically on the table, but no one in their right mind would touch with an 11' pole except in anything but the most extreme of circumstances and after all lesser options have either been expended or rendered unacceptable/ineffectual?  Sure.  'Standard backup plan'?  Not in the least.
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Offline Belial666

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You aren't summoning an Outsider without a major-ass ritual. Casting a 1000-shift spell requires several hours and the closer you come to completion you are shining in the eyes of any supernatural creature that is not magic-blind. People like the Venators might not have a backup plan but they are certainly going to come up with something fast when warding spells all over the world start screaming as you are casting.



As for magic to nukes comparison, a nuclear submarine needs a few hundred workers to work daily for two years to build. Cowl nearly finished his darkhallow with a week's preparation and a spell that killed an entire race of supernatural creatures everywhere in the world took about a year.

Offline Becq

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I think that any group that (a) had a serious concern about Outsiders entering our world and (b) had access to nuclear weapons would probably keep their options very open regarding the use of (b) in the event of (a).  Unless, of course, they had an alternate plan that they felt had a reasonable chance of success with less collateral damage, in which case the nuclear option might get pushed back a few steps on the checklist.


Offline devonapple

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I think that any group that (a) had a serious concern about Outsiders entering our world and (b) had access to nuclear weapons would probably keep their options very open regarding the use of (b) in the event of (a).  Unless, of course, they had an alternate plan that they felt had a reasonable chance of success with less collateral damage, in which case the nuclear option might get pushed back a few steps on the checklist.

Well, yes, but my question is: would they have secured it ahead of time? Would there be a sub waiting offshore, with coordinates locked in? Especially the Venators, who *could* enlist the help of a Blackstaff character, but owing to the delicate nature of the Oblivion war, are not likely to actually do so, preferring to avoid Wizards altogether?

That's one of the issues with involving the Venators: they have to be paranoid, they can't let the White Council (or anyone) know what they are up to - they are essentially alone even among those who would be their staunchest allies, and they are willing to kill to prevent one speck of knowledge of the Outside Ones from returning.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 11:50:13 PM by devonapple »
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline zenten

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Remember there are precision high yield far ranged explosives that could take out a summoning ritual and aren't nukes.

Offline bibliophile20

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Next thought: Does anyone think that there might be an analogue to Delta Green in the Dresdenverse?
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