White Court NPCs and not being super akward

[Jancarius]

So, my next case file I intend to devote to a white court vampire coming after 2 of the party who killed his brother in Paris.  Here's the thing though: One, seems very unlike a WCVamp to kick in the door and try and rip their heads off.  So first, he's going to try and use the party's WCVirgin to find them.  Once that's up, I want to have him start using Raith political connections to try and ruin the party's lifes/make their day to day stuff more difficult.  I decided to go with this cause of the high level of social skills the party generally has, and I wanted to give the socials a chance to shine and a WCVamp seems like a great opportunity, with a finale where they shoot/stab/bite the WCV to death. 

HOWEVER, the other thing is... I figure if the WCV does try and directly kill one of the party members, i have to at least sorta roleplay it out.  And where that gets really akward is one of his 2 primary targets is played by my ex-fiancee.  We broke up about a 15 months ago, and we've been doing a pretty good job on keeping everything friendly (and most of the time succeeding).  However, I think for pretty much everybody (me, my current girl-I'm-dating, and my ex) is SUPER uncomfortable with the idea of me roleplaying seducing her, ESPECIALLY given the supernatural level of arousal that a white court can trigger (Actually, even if my ex was my current gf, I think she would find roleplaying that somewhat akward, she's very shy about sex).  To get around this, I'm thinking I may just have the WCV be gay (or more likely bi, as the majority of Raith seems to be), but I still feel like that's going to be really awkward, and I have no idea how to roleplay seducing a guy without just saying "Okay, you feel super turned on when this guy gets near you... and moving on".  Suggestions? 

Oh, and the other female player, the midget werewolf, is the WCVirgin's RL girlfriend, so I'd prefer not to have to RP seducing her, but at least in her case it wouldn't be near as bad.

[devonapple]

Perhaps you can set up an additional level of separation and have the WCV seduce someone IMPORTANT to the party, but not an actual party member. That would keep the WCV out of the spotlight for quite awhile longer.

The problem with using mental effects on the players (no matter how good they are at keeping player and character knowledge separate) is that eventually it becomes quite cumbersome to maintain without absolute trust between the players and GM. It sounds like this has the potential to be awkward, and in a way that you feel would go beyond what is reasonable in your table's player/character dichotomy.

So don't test it. Find someone close to the PCs and use them as a puppet to manipulate (and/or try to kill) the players. And if you need to preserve transparency with your players, and they can keep secrets from their characters, then run brief cutscenes to make them aware that this is going on.

Edit: but if it does come to a toe-to-toe battle, then you're just going to have to play it with a very light hand, because bi, gay or not, that WCV is going to use whatever he can use in order to gain leverage (and a toe-to-toe fight means the WCV may have already lost). That said, there are plenty of scenes in the fiction when Lara and her gunsisters are serving as gun- and swordfighters only, and they reserve their mindwhammy for the truly hardest targets.

[Tedronai]

Who says the WCV playing the role of the villain has to be from House Wraith?
Skavis or Malvora would probably produce a less...problematic confrontation.

[Vars]

no matter what WCV family you decide to use, whether its Raith, Skavis, or some family you make up the one thing you have to remember is that WCV DO NOT engage directly if they aren't absolutely forced into it. Every time a WCV in the books goes physical its because it was the last resort and their pawns and cats paws had been found out/killed. I strongly suggest you use not only one lay but perhaps up to 6 layers between whoever attacks your pc's (whether physical or social or monetarily) and the puppet master. These guys are manipulaters first and combat junkies second. In fact, whatever WCV you use would lose A LOT of face by engaging directly.

[Tedronai]

WCV DO NOT engage directly if they aren't absolutely forced into it.

...or feel assured of their victory (most common in 'confrontations' with their prey)...

[Remy Sinclair]

So, my next case file I intend to devote to a white court vampire coming after 2 of the party who killed his brother in Paris.  Here's the thing though: One, seems very unlike a WCVamp to kick in the door and try and rip their heads off.  So first, he's going to try and use the party's WCVirgin to find them.  Once that's up, I want to have him start using Raith political connections to try and ruin the party's lifes/make their day to day stuff more difficult.  I decided to go with this cause of the high level of social skills the party generally has, and I wanted to give the socials a chance to shine and a WCVamp seems like a great opportunity, with a finale where they shoot/stab/bite the WCV to death.  

HOWEVER, the other thing is... I figure if the WCV does try and directly kill one of the party members, i have to at least sorta roleplay it out.  And where that gets really akward is one of his 2 primary targets is played by my ex-fiancee.  We broke up about a 15 months ago, and we've been doing a pretty good job on keeping everything friendly (and most of the time succeeding).  However, I think for pretty much everybody (me, my current girl-I'm-dating, and my ex) is SUPER uncomfortable with the idea of me roleplaying seducing her, ESPECIALLY given the supernatural level of arousal that a white court can trigger (Actually, even if my ex was my current gf, I think she would find roleplaying that somewhat akward, she's very shy about sex).  To get around this, I'm thinking I may just have the WCV be gay (or more likely bi, as the majority of Raith seems to be), but I still feel like that's going to be really awkward, and I have no idea how to roleplay seducing a guy without just saying "Okay, you feel super turned on when this guy gets near you... and moving on".  Suggestions?  

Oh, and the other female player, the midget werewolf, is the WCVirgin's RL girlfriend, so I'd prefer not to have to RP seducing her, but at least in her case it wouldn't be near as bad.

You are afraid of seducing people with your NPC because the person behind it is your ex?

Okay, dude it is a game. I have ran WoD for most of my gaming life. Meaning Vampire: TM, Werewolf: TA, and Mage: TA. For my NPCs I use pictures and say X looks like this. Vampire seducing is an art form unless you run Sabbat games.

This is a game and it is not real. You are playing a woman and he is playing a guy. Seducing him is part of the game. Roleplaying out the scenes are a must in a game like the Dresden Files. If you are feeling awkward about this then just use straight die rolls following the Social Combat Rules in the game.

But if you have an issue running a simple scene like this. Is this the right game for you? Is your group mature enough to play a game with these kind of social aspects? Why do your WCV have to be Raiths there are other families that do not use Lust and if you do not like any of them. Make up your own so you do not have to seduce.


One of the female players is the wife of one of the players.

Now this one is tricky and I understand completely. My wife is in our gaming group. l do a lot of the running so I have to make things very clear that I treat her like a player. That if you backstab her. Kill her etc if that is part of the game I have no issues. You do not have to like her character etc.

Now in our current game, I have made it clear to my GM go nuts do what you think is right with my wife's character. She is playing a Raith WCV and the character is a sexual deviant to boot.

I am playing the lowly geeky wizard who wants nothing to do with her character's sex life. I know her character will make the other players nervous. I have no issue if one of their characters sleep with my wife's character it is a GAME!


It does make things awkward but if they are gamers. They like you have to separate in the game playing from real life. If none of you do. Then this is not the game for any of you and your group.

From your issues my impression is you are learning an new skill GMing and why we are here.

[sinker]

This kind of response bothers me. Dresden is flexible enough that it can be used by all. If you want to make a flat dungeon crawl ala D&D then you conceivably could. If you want to completely ignore the more gritty social aspects of the game you could (in fact SotC is a little closer to that goal). There is no reason to be telling people that the game is "above them."

This person is saying that this situation would be socially awkward in his group. I understand that. Gamers are people. They have feelings, and many people would feel uncomfortable with another person (from whom they desire no attention) trying to seduce them. Jan feels that there are people in his group that may feel that way. He has asked for help. Telling him not to play does not help him find a solution to the problem that works for him.

Sorry if that seems harsh. I'm not trying to flame you. I just don't see how that kind of a thing helps Jan in this situation.

[Jancarius]

Yeah, I'm gonna pretty much say no to ya, Remy.  I've been DMing D&D games for the best part of a decade, and playing in them before that.  What I generally find no one appreciates is a role played seduction because it's hard to impossible for most players, myself included, find a comfortable level at which to role play that seriously.  For a similar reason that I almost never use female villains (or even female NPCs that the party is expected to interact with for a sustained period of time) because it's difficult to take me saying anything in falsetto seriously, I find attempting to seduce someone in game comes off as overblown (Think Flynn from the early parts of Tangled for example), or having to reduce it to 'fade to black' role play, where simply the basic interactions are described, and the story moves on. 

Sinker more or less covered the rest of it. 

[stabbald]

You are afraid of seducing people with your NPC because the person behind it is your ex?

Okay, dude it is a game. I have ran WoD for most of my gaming life. Meaning Vampire: TM, Werewolf: TA, and Mage: TA. For my NPCs I use pictures and say X looks like this. Vampire seducing is an art form unless you run Sabbat games.

This is a game and it is not real. You are playing a woman and he is playing a guy. Seducing him is part of the game. Roleplaying out the scenes are a must in a game like the Dresden Files. If you are feeling awkward about this then just use straight die rolls following the Social Combat Rules in the game.

But if you have an issue running a simple scene like this. Is this the right game for you? Is your group mature enough to play a game with these kind of social aspects? Why do your WCV have to be Raiths there are other families that do not use Lust and if you do not like any of them. Make up your own so you do not have to seduce.


One of the female players is the wife of one of the players.

Now this one is tricky and I understand completely. My wife is in our gaming group. l do a lot of the running so I have to make things very clear that I treat her like a player. That if you backstab her. Kill her etc if that is part of the game I have no issues. You do not have to like her character etc.

Now in our current game, I have made it clear to my GM go nuts do what you think is right with my wife's character. She is playing a Raith WCV and the character is a sexual deviant to boot.

I am playing the lowly geeky wizard who wants nothing to do with her character's sex life. I know her character will make the other players nervous. I have no issue if one of their characters sleep with my wife's character it is a GAME!


It does make things awkward but if they are gamers. They like you have to separate in the game playing from real life. If none of you do. Then this is not the game for any of you and your group.

From your issues my impression is you are learning an new skill GMing and why we are here.

Could this have come across as more condescending? Who are you to tell people what they should and should not feel comfortable with?

As for the issue at hand, does it have to be a lust vampire? If it's feeding habits have not already been determined you could always make it a less awkward emotion.

[Chris_Fougere]

Could this have come across as more condescending? Who are you to tell people what they should and should not feel comfortable with?

As for the issue at hand, does it have to be a lust vampire? If it's feeding habits have not already been determined you could always make it a less awkward emotion.

100% This:)

I`ve been running games for a long, long, long time, quite probably longer than some of you reading this (going in to my 3rd decade now) and this sort of condescending elitist crap doesn`t help at all.  The OP came here looking for help in a situation his group may find delicate.  Telling him his group may not be mature enough to handle this game isn`t helping.

Step one - talk to the players involved.  Always, always, always make sure everyone is on the same page.  Maybe they`re okay with RPing the seduction aspects and the perceived awkwardness is in your head.  Maybe they`re not and would rather just make some quick descriptions and roll some dice.  Each group dynamic is different but the first step to making things work is to talk it out.

Step Two - Look at the Story and figure out if it is necessary for the WC vamps to feed off lust.  Maybe its not and you can avoid the whole situation without compromising the story.

Step Three - Zig instead of zagging.  If the players (and characters) are expecting WC vampires to come after them, then do something else.  The WC is an ideal behind the scenes bad guy and that is far more their style anyway.  Maybe they have a sorceror under their sway who`ll provide some demonic muscle.  Maybe they pay off a ghoul clan to attack and scatter the PCs and then the WC vampire can pick them off one at a time.  Think outside the box and your story will be better for it.

[Jancarius]

Glad I'm not the only person who found that post condescending.

I guess the only reason I was stuck on it being a Raith WCV was that the brother was, but strictly speaking I suppose they have shown that people can pick up 'feeding habits' different from what they have naturally.  If I went with despair, it could also be directly to related to why the vampire is going out of his way to sabotage them socially before he moves in for the kill... having someone's life fall part would definitely be despair inducing.

@Chris: We're playing a fairly low power game (7 refresh, 26 skill atm), what do you think might be some ideal choices for 'disposable minions' for a despair WCV?

[Remy Sinclair]

Could this have come across as more condescending? Who are you to tell people what they should and should not feel comfortable with?

As for the issue at hand, does it have to be a lust vampire? If it's feeding habits have not already been determined you could always make it a less awkward emotion.

He said it himself he is awkward playing the seduction stuff because he has his ex fiancee and girlfriend in the same game! And he has a buddy's wife in there to. He is afraid to do the seduction because it makes himself and his gaming group awkward. If that is making someone awkward and his gaming group as well because of the past history and they cannot keep IRL and Game separate this kind of game is not for them.

Examples of his quotes shall we?

HOWEVER, the other thing is... I figure if the WCV does try and directly kill one of the party members, i have to at least sorta roleplay it out.  And where that gets really akward is one of his 2 primary targets is played by my ex-fiancee.  We broke up about a 15 months ago, and we've been doing a pretty good job on keeping everything friendly (and most of the time succeeding).  


However, I think for pretty much everybody (me, my current girl-I'm-dating, and my ex) is SUPER uncomfortable] with the idea of me roleplaying seducing her, ESPECIALLY given the supernatural level of arousal that a white court can trigger (Actually, even if my ex was my current gf, I think she would find roleplaying that somewhat akward, she's very shy about sex).

Jancarius states that he, his ex-fiance and his current girlfriend are all uncomfortable with the idea of sexual seduction in the game. Where do I get that from? What he posted in the second paragraph. That the players especially him and those two women in his life are uncomfortable with the whole sex aspect. He said that not me.

I split the two paragraphs up so you can see what he said and highlighted areas that was said in his post.

To get around this, I'm thinking I may just have the WCV be gay (or more likely bi, as the majority of Raith seems to be), but I still feel like that's going to be really awkward, and I have no idea how to roleplay seducing a guy without just saying "Okay, you feel super turned on when this guy gets near you... and moving on".  Suggestions?

He states here he is awkward playing a female character to seduce a man, so he thinks a gay male character would be easier.

Oh, and the other female player, the midget werewolf, is the WCVirgin's RL girlfriend, so I'd prefer not to have to RP seducing her, but at least in her case it wouldn't be near as bad.

And there is someone else's girlfriend in this and he feels awkward once again playing the sexual aspect of the game. This own words. Not mine.

I listed both: The Social Combat Rules and use another WTC house even make up your own. Did you not read that? Take a look at your own quote of me.

In my second paragraph under You are afraid of seducing people with your NPC because the person behind it is your ex?

This is a game and it is not real. You are playing a woman and he is playing a guy. Seducing him is part of the game. Roleplaying out the scenes are a must in a game like the Dresden Files. If you are feeling awkward about this then just use straight die rolls following the Social Combat Rules in the game.

I clearly state the Social Combat Rules. I also say the game is not real because it seems what happens in game is effecting him and his players look at his quotes.

I even say in the third paragraph under You are afraid of seducing people with your NPC because the person behind it is your ex?

But if you have an issue running a simple scene like this. Is this the right game for you? Is your group mature enough to play a game with these kind of social aspects? Why do your WCV have to be Raiths there are other families that do not use Lust and if you do not like any of them. Make up your own so you do not have to seduce.

Once again you say something I did. Make your own. I also ask him the question that every GM on the planet has to ask. Is this the right game for me to run and is this the right game with my set of players.

If I had a character being seductive and it could be an issue with the other players. Like I mention with my wife in my games. I am sick of quoting myself. You should reread it.

Many a player has had issues with my wife playing seductive characters why she stopped until we have our current gaming group. Why my wife avoided those kind of characters until we found a gaming group that can handle this. We found a gaming group that can handle her playing something like that. Obviously there are some issues in this gaming group that make these situations uncomfortable as Jancarius has stated more than once in his statement.

Obviously in Jancarius's gaming group his girlfriend is uncomfortable with sex IRL and in game. She also has issues with him playing a NPC seducing his ex-fiance's PC especially for the strong sexual desires it brings out. He himself stated he has an issue trying to seduce a male PC. He even said he has issue trying to seduce his ex-fiance's girlfriend's PC as well. So everyone in his group he states is uncomfortable with this aspect.

It is his job as GM/Storyteller to see if the game is the right one for his gaming group. Yes, it is harsh of me asking him if his group has the maturity to play a game like this, but he himself needs to take a look at the make up of the game. If his GF had issues with sex and sexuality as he stated and I highlighted. I would have steered my ex-fiance away from playing a Raith Vamp. You need to make sure what is being played in your gaming group will make everyone comfortable.

Some groups can separate IRL and Game stuff and some cannot. Obviously this is extremely difficult with all these people involve and he does not seem to have the experience to run a seductive NPC (his/her quote of not knowing how to seduce a guy so playing a gay male character might help).

Now I listed my experience because I have gone through exactly that (other than having my ex playing with me and my current girlfriend and my ex's current girlfriend) there seems to be some fear of jealousy issues here.

So once again is this the right game for his/her gaming group? Is it constructed the way to not create conflict. Right now it is sounding like it is and that can cause major issues. If the players cannot separate IRL and Gaming. Start from Scratch or run a different game.

Harsh but hey I have GMed for 20 years and sometimes as the GM you have to make those hard choices like this. The least thing you want is to tear your gaming group apart.







And yes not all games are for all gaming groups.

Maybe I was not clear as I was dealing with both a sick wife and a 3 month old in the middle of the night as a wrote this.

[Jancarius]

I think you definitely mis-interpreted what I said.  One, it's a girl I'm dating, not my girlfriend.  Two, she's not in the game, but because I like her enough to tell her things that I think would concern her, I let her know that the potential scene might come up.  Three, it's also not a friend's wife, just his girlfriend.  I actually don't know where you got the wife bit, I understand the first 2 misinterpretations.  Then in your last paragraph, there's all kind of wrong information.  For example, none of the girls are playing WCVamp or WCVirgin characters.  One of the male players is a WCVirgin, and he's intending to STAY a WCVirgin for as long as he can (with Tarsiel actively sabotaging this). 

So while you may have been trying to be in some way helpful, I still find your 'help' so insulting in it's condescension that it just makes me want to start trolling you.  I think the real conceit here is that you treat it like "IF YOU CAN'T HANDEL THE SEX IN THE GAME, GTFO THE GAME!"  If you had instead suggested "Perhaps you should avoid using WCV villains, or stick to the other families"  initially, it might have gone over better.  But instead, you come off sounding like a stuck up Cam LARPer whose been playing his fantasy WoD self for too long and thinks that because he hooked up with some Cam LARP girls IC once, that he is a master of in game seduction.

I'm not sure about your ability to do a female voice, but mine is on the far side of ridiculous sounding falsetto.  So having a villain with a Warner Brothers Cartoon voice just doesn't really seem like a great choice, thus, male villains.  It's not that it makes me particularly uncomfortable, it just sounds absurd to be threatened by Bugs Bunny's female voice.  You are correct I don't know how to run a believable seductive NPC.  My personal method of seduction involves utilizing small physical contact, flirting, and a other subtle things, and doesn't play well to a tabletop style game where the players are sitting around a table.

[devonapple]

The basic tenet of responding to a thread asking for help is that one attempt to provide help.

"Pack up your toys and go home" is not, alas, a very productive message. Neither is "suck it up, monkey."

[Saedar]

If you still want to involve the players, as opposed to someone close to them, it may be a situation where you boil it down to mechanics only. You may want to discuss this with your players and set up some ground rules. If you have past and present romantic involvements going on between multiple players, it could be helpful to find out their positions on it.

I pretty much always advocate a very open and approachable method of GMing. Talk to your players, find out what you and they are comfortable roleplaying and then go from there. Happy gaming!