First law question

[ZMiles]

1. If someone shapeshifts themselves (like a werewolf or Hexenwolf), then kills someone using their new form, would this violate the first law? Is it in principle different from any other spell that sets up a non-magical death (like magically making a fire that burns someone, or a disease that kills someone)?

2. If the shapeshifting is powered by another entity (like a Denarian), would this entity shield from the first law consequences (since the laws only apply to humans)?

[MijRai]

I would say shapeshifting would not cause Lawbreaker, even if it were a spell, rather than some kind of innate ability.

The second point is null if it doesn't break a Law.

[Mal_Luck]

Do I think shapeshifted entities (shifters or magically transformed others) deserve the Lawbreaker power when they kill with their new natural weapons? The answer is clear to me: No, they are not violating the First Law.

[BumblingBear]

Do I think shapeshifted entities (shifters or magically transformed others) deserve the Lawbreaker power when they kill with their new natural weapons? The answer is clear to me: No, they are not violating the First Law.

I agree with this.

That said, a lot of these first law questions really boil down to opinions.

I think it is important for a group to sit down and really talk out what constitutes a law violation before playing... or whether they even want to get caught up in the law violations.

[devonapple]

I concur: no First Law violation.

[Bruce Coulson]

If a wizard shape-shifts themself in order to kill someone without leaving forensic evidence....

That's starting to get close to the line.  I would concur that it's not a First Law violation, but Wardens would start taking a more active interest in the character's activities.

Now, if the wizard shape-shifted themselves for some other reason (espionage), got attacked, and killed the attacker; definitely not a violation.  Technically, it's no different than a boxer or martial artist using their Fists to kill someone; it may well be illegal, but not to the White Council.

[Jinn Master]

No. Otherwise the White Council would keep track of people like Billy. Shapeshifting is a natural, somewhat magical ability that can be learned, but only the process is magic- not anything you do on one side or other of the shift.

[devonapple]

No. Otherwise the White Council would keep track of people like Billy.

That's true: the White Council doesn't seem concerned with Loup-Garoux or Lycanthropes.

//Hypothetical// I can imagine a sneaky Accord Signatory motivated to force the White Council to "adopt" Shapeshifters like the Alphas, in which case the Wardens would definitely get involved. But that is //Hypothetical// and possibly a compelling Trouble idea for some future game.

[Tedronai]

The Wardens might then get involved, but not to prosecute them for 1st Law violations committed by virtue of being shapeshifted at the time of the killing.

[Bruce Coulson]

True. The Wardens might become interested if a Wizard persistently shape-changes in order to kill humans.  Not because it's a violation per se, but because it possibly indicates a darker trend emerging.

But for your garden-variety Were, even thouhg there's considerable discussion in the game books over whether weres are just very focused talents or something else, there's no indication in the source material that the White Council considers them spell-casters within the meaning of their jurisdiction.

[Richard_Chilton]

If they are mortals with minor talents, the White Council can claim them (at least as far as the accords go).

Most of the time they don't bother, but if a Warden wanted to make an issue of something than he could.

Richard

[Bruce Coulson]

That does seem to be the question (and one to be answered in everyone's individual games).

My feeling on the matter is that shapechangers are not using a spell.  Hence, they are not spell-casters, so the White Council has no authority.

I can't imagine Wardens routinely ignoring violations of the First Law (which changing into an animal solely to kill someone certainly would seem to be; under the same guidelines that summoning a critter to kill someone is a violation).  No matter how 'minor' the Talent.

But if shapechangers are NOT spell-casters, then there's no inconsistency.  Wardens don't routinely intervene against monsters.  (They do intervene; but they're not out looking for that sort of thing.)

[sinker]

One could point out that most of our evidence that shape-shifters are spell-casters comes by way of Bob, who while being a reliable source of info is also a wizard's tool and sees most things from a wizard's perspective. Hell, his limited understanding of Faith seems to compare it to spell-casting (for example his explanation of the Swords of the Cross being focus items for the faith of others).