Author Topic: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking  (Read 107195 times)

Offline Thrythlind

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2011, 05:25:23 PM »
how would you handle this situation:

I had a ethnomancer who, over the course of the campaign, upgraded to full wizard (well, sorcerer, technically)

at one point, I appealed to the ghosts in an area to scare people and give us cover and such (note, just the ghosts, which, as canon notes, aren't really dead people but are just reflections of people who died)...we had on hand a "book of the dead" we were trying to keep out of the hands of darkness...and a player with the "supernatural magnet" aspect

said player, not me, invoked his supernatural magnet aspect, trying to get the dullahan or some other death-oriented thingy to come over to us so we could give him the book and all would be right with the world

when said player invoked his supernatural magnet, suddenly all the ghosts I had called upon in the area spontaneously became true spirits of the dead brought over from the other side....

the dullahan showed up to come talk to me about fiddling with the dead...thankfully I was in a circle and the rest of the party convinced him I wasn't at fault

the GM in question did not give me the stunt...but would you have?

note, the wardens in the campaign frequently showed up from that point on to harass me and attempts by me to get them to soulgaze me went for nought because at about that time, something would show up that was more concerning....or someone would "rescue" me before I could prove my innocence...at the end of the campaign, I was trying to finagle an Accorded position with the rest of the group so that the wardens wouldn't have a legal hold on me anymore...since it was becoming apparent I'd never be able to get a chance to prove I wasn't a warlock
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Offline Roskey

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2011, 09:46:27 PM »
Hey! Um, new here, just had some cents to share if anyone was interested.

Considering the game mechanics have it so that you cannot "accidentally" break them unless you have a clear OOC intent to do so, and we've seen that magic is based on belief and intention and can affect both physics (hexing as example) and chance (entropy curses as example), perhaps simply not wanting/not intending/etc. to kill (first law is the easiest to example for isn't it...) will arrange events so that it simply does not happen.

Offline Kintar

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2011, 10:11:52 PM »
My main issue with the Lawbreaker stunt is the fact that it grants bonuses, and therefore has a refresh cost. There have been times in our games where Breaking a law would have been very interesting for the group, but the wizard in question only had one refresh left. At that point, breaking a law and taking a stunt would render him an NPC. Anyone have recommendations on dealing with that?

Offline iago

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2011, 10:18:35 PM »
My main issue with the Lawbreaker stunt is the fact that it grants bonuses, and therefore has a refresh cost. There have been times in our games where Breaking a law would have been very interesting for the group, but the wizard in question only had one refresh left. At that point, breaking a law and taking a stunt would render him an NPC. Anyone have recommendations on dealing with that?

Have a sponsor permanently shoulder the cost of the lawbreaker stunt -- but that's a debt that never really gets paid off. :)
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2011, 02:29:21 PM »
Anyone have recommendations on dealing with that?
Another option - take an extreme consequence / aspect change of Wrestling with My Conscience or something appropriate and keep it until you spend the refresh on Lawbreaker.
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Offline Leon Norton-Black

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2011, 09:02:30 AM »
Question my good man:  Say for example I have my character Sneaky McStealthyson who is the king stealth and veiling on top of stealth.  Sneaky veils himself, sneaks up on his mark, unveils himself, shanks the poor guy with a titanium spork to death, then veils himself, and stealthy skips away like a happy school girl.  Other than Sneaky being an assassin with a fatter wallet at the hypothetical moment, did he even break the first law of magic or would this be an example of dancing around the edge of the laws enough to potentially invoke the wrath of the Wardens or even a "Blackstaff"?
PS: The spork is not magical even though it should be.....

Offline iago

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2011, 01:36:05 PM »
Question my good man:  Say for example I have my character Sneaky McStealthyson who is the king stealth and veiling on top of stealth.  Sneaky veils himself, sneaks up on his mark, unveils himself, shanks the poor guy with a titanium spork to death, then veils himself, and stealthy skips away like a happy school girl.  Other than Sneaky being an assassin with a fatter wallet at the hypothetical moment, did he even break the first law of magic or would this be an example of dancing around the edge of the laws enough to potentially invoke the wrath of the Wardens or even a "Blackstaff"?

I'd put that as dancing around the edge. And hell: it dances around the laws of the Council, but it's smack in the middle of breaking mortal laws, right? No matter how good of a veiler the guy is, I bet he's leaving physical evidence at the scene of the crime.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2011, 04:39:17 AM »
That would be, imho, as much a violation of the accords as the Merlin himself, having in his childhood performed an act of magic that saved him from a deadly fall (or some other ignominious mundane death) later in life crushing the life out of an enemy with his bare hands, with no magic involved.
In other words, not a violation in the least.  He would not have had the opportunity to take that life in the absence of magic, but the magic was not involved in the act itself, and so neither are the Laws of Magic.
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2011, 07:42:00 AM »
Question my good man:  Say for example I have my character Sneaky McStealthyson who is the king stealth and veiling on top of stealth.

Curse you.  Now I have to make a Sneaky assassin type.  One that technically only breaks the mortal laws... And find a reason that he hasn't been hunted down as an assassin by the Wardens who tend to defend innocent mortals...

That's it.  He kills other killers.

Richard

PS:
Edited to add a link:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30354.0.html - to a murder addicted scion who sublimates his desire to kill with his bare hands by working as a mob hit man (and killing with a silenced gun while under a veil).  Since he is only targeted towards other underworld figures (and he rarely kills without his Boss ordering him to do so) he is way down on the Warden's list of "things that need to be dealt with" - down after everything that kills innocent bystanders.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 06:59:13 AM by Richard_Chilton »

Offline computerking

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2011, 07:46:05 PM »
Curse you.  Now I have to make a Sneaky assassin type.  One that technically only breaks the mortal laws... And find a reason that he hasn't been hunted down as an assassin by the Wardens who tend to defend innocent mortals...

That's it.  He kills other killers.

Richard

Great, now I have to stat a Magical Dexter Morgan to get that concept out of my head...
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Offline ReaderAt2046

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2013, 01:08:24 AM »

Something that is driving me insane, because it's about the only part of this system that doesn't seem to make sense: Why is it considered wrong to kill with magic even when it would be not only acceptable but mandatory to kill any other way? To give a specific example, suppose we have Warden Jason Knight fighting some sort of warlock and in the course of the battle Jason blows the warlock's head off his shoulders with a fireball spell. As the system stands now, that would earn him a Lawbreaker stunt, but doing the exact same thing for the exact same reason, except with his sword instead of magic, has no effect on him.

At its core, my problem stems from how Lawbreaking corrupts. Everything I've read indicates that Lawbreaking corrupts because of how magic comes from belief, so breaking the First Law means that you believe killing is right. My question, though, is what if you kill for a good reason, like to protect others or to enforce Justice? Wouldn't that only reinforce your belief that you should kill for, and only for, the right reasons?

The fact that the White Council has a self-defense exemption seems to support this position, and yet more importantly, we see Harry kill dozens of humans with magic in Grave Peril without meaning to, but there doesn't seem to be any negative effects on his soul, which would imply that it's the intent to kill that corrupts. But clearly not all killing is wrong, ergo, intent to kill is not always wrong.

In short, it seems that doing something good for good reasons can still make you evil. Please explain?

Offline Tedronai

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2013, 02:15:13 AM »
First off, the easiest distinction: the enforcement of the Laws by the White Council and its Wardens is not actually bound to the cosmic truth of the corruption caused by violating the Laws.  The Council is a political agency, and makes decisions for political reasons.

As for the 'killing for good reasons'...before you can reinforce the idea that it is okay to kill 'only for the right reasons' you must first reinforce the idea that there are 'right reasons' to kill, and that the individual is capable of distinguishing them.  And that is exactly the sort of corruption that Lawbreaker represents: that one individual has the right to decide whether or not another deserves to die.
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
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Offline Troy

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2013, 10:06:16 AM »
Maybe I'm an optimist at heart, but: You're a wizard. Surely you can think of some way to solve your problem without resorting to killing?

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Offline ReaderAt2046

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2013, 10:23:57 AM »
As for the 'killing for good reasons'...before you can reinforce the idea that it is okay to kill 'only for the right reasons' you must first reinforce the idea that there are 'right reasons' to kill, and that the individual is capable of distinguishing them.

Which quite clearly the Council believes to be true. The Council has Wardens to chop off people's heads. Therefore, it believes that there are proper circumstances to kill and that it is possible to discern what they are.

Offline polkaneverdies

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Re: "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 12:07:07 PM »
Jim has referred to magic as "the power of creation". Killing with it apparently violates that essential nature of magic.