Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?

[DFJunkie]

While I wouldn't allow a spell to simply zap a Fallen or the shadow of a Fallen out of someone's mind I would not hesitate, as a GM, to give a PC exorcist the ability to essentially give the host of one of the Fallen another choice to reject the coin, and free himself of the taint entirely. It's true, this ability isn't so much as alluded to in the series or the rulebooks, but fortunately it doesn't have to be.  If it's the thing that sets your PC exorcist apart from all the other practitioners in the world then I'd say it's absolutely a good thing, and you should go with it. 

One of the reasons I was initially hesitant to run a DFRPG game is that I was worried that "Harry will always be more special than you" is an implied aspect of the game.  This kind of ability would be perfect to set up one of your PCs as every bit as special as Mr. Dresden without providing an overwhelming advantage to him. 

[Richard_Chilton]

There's also nothing in the books about how Harry is a serial killer - slicing people open between cases.  Just because we haven't read anything about it happening doesn't mean that it hasn't happened - absence knowledge about those killing is not conclusive evidence of impossibility of them happening.

Personally, I don't think Dresden is a serial killer - but since most of the stories are his point of view we'd never know unless he told us - or unless we look at what we have and draw conclusions.

The Knights of the Cross have been battling those beings for 2000 years.  Admittedly their records have taken several hits, but they only know of one way to remove a Shadow - and by 'they' I'm including the former host/current knight.  Dresden couldn't figure out how to contain the thing inside his head - it kept talking to his subconscious.  Bob couldn't even get started on a way to remove the Shadow from Dresden's head.

That's both Bob and Harry not being able to get rid of the Shadow because it is part of Harry.

The way I see it - there is only one logical way to drive out a shadow from another person:
Break open the gates of hell to release the Fallen into the world.  With the full power of the Fallen walking the Earth the shadow wouldn't be inside anyone's head.

Other than that, the setting as written doesn't support it - for the same reason that Micheal didn't have Dresden\s back when they met Lea in the Nevernever that first time.  Correct me if I'm wrong but the setting is all about freewill.  Did you decide to kill someone with magic? Then you're a lawbreaker even if that person deserved to die.  Did you make a deal with the Fairies? Then the forces of Heaven WON'T help you.  Not "can't" but "won't".  The conversations with Jake make it clear that the forces of Heaven aren't there to save mortal from their mistakes - because if they did that then mortal choice wouldn't matter.

If you take an action that results in a Fallen casting a Shadow inside your head, you did it.  You might not have had all the info, but you made a bad choice and even someone like Jake won't drive the thing out.


Think about the problem of restoring a Renfield.  If the books hadn't explicitly said it was impossible people would be asking how many shifts to fix that.  If Harry hadn't have taken a year working on a spell and failing (how many shifts could a wizard gather in a year??) then people would say "enough to take Susan out and then enough to take out the infection - say 30 shifts?" when talking about curing Red Court Infection.  Well, Dresden worked for years, on and off, to drive a Shadow out of his head and he failed.   His own head (where he had home field advantage), not someone else's head (he might have to break a law of magic to get into someone else's head to find the Shadow).  Dresden, who better at the spell work than he is at blasting and one of the top 100 wizards alive, couldn't do it for himself.

That leads me to think that it's one of those impossible things.  If you have evidence from a book that I'm wrong I'll be happy to hear it, but just saying "absence of previous known success is not conclusive evidence of impossibility" will just get me back to talking about the pile of heads that Dresden collected as he stalked the night looking for victims.

Richard

[Tedronai]

The Shadow can't be banished because it's part of the host?  Fine.  Let's go with that assumption.
So the ritual that you need isn't a banishment.  There are canon methods to slice out portions of a person's mind, personality, or memory (though 'slice' likely implies too clean of a result for what most practitioners capable of the basic function would be able to accomplish).  You might not like the result, and the White Council might hound you into your grave if they find out, but it's perfectly consistent with canon, given that first assumption.  It's also perfectly consistent with a method Dresden, the White Council, and its allies (including the Church) would dismiss outright, not considering it an acceptable solution, and thus not considering it a solution at all.

[Richard_Chilton]

There are canon methods to slice out portions of a person's mind, personality, or memory (though 'slice' likely implies too clean of a result for what most practitioners capable of the basic function would be able to accomplish). 

And cut off part of the soul - which the Shadow shares with the host.

Maybe it's because I'm tired, but I can't remember any "slice out a part of the mind" happening in the series - at least not cast by mortals.  The Renfields made by the Black Court or trading some of your memories to the fairies - that's happened (but Susan got those back, so it wasn't permanent).  Linking a desire for drugs to fear/avoidance - that's happened. 

(click to show/hide)

The Queen of Winter causing Harry to temporarily forget something and not notice that he had forgotten it - that happened.

But cutting away memories? I can't even remember any villains doing that.  Am I missing something from one of the short stories?

Richard

[zenten]

"Say yes" trumps canon.

[Uilos]

Slicing is probably not what they are looking for in terms. Lea and Mab supress memories. However, a Shadow of a Coin exists on a physical and spiritual plane. You would have to deal. Cutting the demon from the source of power (the soul) might be easier than destroying it's physical place of existence as it also risks irreparably damaging the host. Let's not tap dance around the issue, Harry was effectively lobotimized when Lash died. The fact that it was parts of the brain that didn't overtly affect him seems to be a lucky break (or divine intervention), but you see the point.

[ways and means]

From the book there is evidence that a sufficiently powerful Psychic blast can rid a person of one of the shadows (who are separate from the coins mealy an impression of evil) therefore the only real question is aiming? 

[Richard_Chilton]

From the book there is evidence that a sufficiently powerful Psychic blast can rid a person of one of the shadows (who are separate from the coins mealy an impression of evil) therefore the only real question is aiming? 

Only if that Shadow willingly throws itself in the path of the blast.  That is, a Shadow can ch0ose to "die" to protect its host or can choose to allow it's host to die.  That means the Shadow dies as well, bur Harry's Shadow was empowered by associating with Harry.

Richard

[Wolfwood2]

"Say yes" trumps canon.

Agreed.  Matching what's in the books is at best a far secondary goal to playing the game in an enjoyable manner.

[Richard_Chilton]

Maybe I'm too focus on the setting as written as opposed to the feel of the RPG.

Question: Looking through the rules, what's to stop a depressed mage from making a pocket full of sunlight? I mean, sure "I'm as happy as sunshine" might have been tag the first time Harry made that, but the RAW doesn't seem to require any specific aspect be tagged for spells. 

Richard

[devonapple]

Question: Looking through the rules, what's to stop a depressed mage from making a pocket full of sunlight? I mean, sure "I'm as happy as sunshine" might have been tag the first time Harry made that, but the RAW doesn't seem to require any specific aspect be tagged for spells. 

Nothing in the RAW. It would be in the gameplay, the GM's arbitration.

During the Lore Declarations Phase required to create the item (which I believe is going to count as a Potion), a GM (familiar with the setting and the magical object's description in the setting) may require that at least one of the Declarations involve the spellcaster experiencing or exposing some ritual element to some sort of happiness.

But that's about role-playing and making each item a story in and of itself. All of which is encouraged in the RAW, but not prescribed in specific terms.

[Tedronai]

Or, more appropriately, I think, when the practitioner in question attempts to craft the Hankie Of Vampire Slaying, the GM should Compel whatever aspect represents their depression to steer them to a more setting-consistent alternative.  And if they buy out of the compel, well, apparently they've managed to find a metaphorical ray of sunshine in their dismal, overcast life.  It won't last for long, but long enough to get the job done.

[devonapple]

the GM should Compel whatever aspect represents their depression to steer them to a more setting-consistent alternative.

GM: "Isn't it a shame that you are Wracked with Despair?" (offers Fate Point token) "You really *should* cheer yourself up - perhaps go to that [plot hook] party that your friends invited you to."

But we digress.

It sounds like the community consensus is split between the following:

Strict but Backed by the Setting: Exorcising a Denarian is impossible: focus on redeeming the current Host.

Easier, Still a Challenge: Exorcising a Denarian is impossible; temporarily banishing a Denarian is incredibly difficult but possible: then it is easier to focus on redeeming the current Host.

Generous: Driving out a Denarian is nigh-impossible, but if your GM allows it, an impressive Ritual of 30+ shifts could make it happen.

[Tedronai]

Easier, Still a Challenge

^ Implying that a ritual potentially reaching into the 40s in complexity isn't challenging.

[Richard_Chilton]

It sounds like the community consensus is split between the following:

That's a fair summing of the situation.

Richard