Author Topic: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?  (Read 10028 times)

Offline toturi

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2011, 09:54:23 AM »
Either the holder gives up the coin and the source of temptation, or the Shadow destroys the link. No third party can do it for you.
The first 2 methods work in canon, but is there any statement in canon that say no other method will work?
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Offline zenten

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2011, 11:29:22 AM »
No, because Lash was dead. Actually burned out of Harrys mind through her own choice. If a spell forces the shadow out, it can't break the link the fallen has to the target. That can only be done through free will. Either the holder gives up the coin and the source of temptation, or the Shadow destroys the link. No third party can do it for you.

Either way the kid can just go and grab the coin again :)

Offline Nyarlathotep5150

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2011, 05:45:51 PM »
The first 2 methods work in canon, but is there any statement in canon that say no other method will work?

   The conversation where Micheal tells Harry that the only way to get rid off the link is to willingly give up the coin and his magic. What happened to Lash was a one time instance where the shadow decided to give up the link (as evidenced by her final words being, "She doesn't deserve you.").
    Its also plainly obvious to anyone paying attention to the way god works in Dresden Files. Its all about free will. You have to make the hard choice and nobody else can help you.

    Besides, if a mortal spell could break the link, the Denarians would never have been a threat to begin with. Noone would have to worry about touching the coins, because you could just cast a spell to fix it.
    The best a mortal spell could do is banish the shadow temporarily. Until the Target makes the choice to forsake the coin, that link will be there.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2011, 06:16:08 PM »
Since we have absolutely NO evidence to believe that a shadow can exist separate from its host, we must assume that a banished shadow IS a dead shadow.
We also have no evidence to believe that there is a link between coin and host beyond the shadow.

so banished shadow = dead shadow = severed link

And we're not talking about a dimestore mortal spell, here.  We're talking a spell significantly more powerful than something that Harry Dresden, Wizard of the White Council of Magic, self-proclaimed as farm more adept with thaumaturgy than evocation, initially deemed impossible.
Steps one through twenty of this ritual are going to be figuring out how it's accomplished.
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Offline zenten

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2011, 07:33:22 PM »
We also have no evidence to believe that there is a link between coin and host beyond the shadow.

Sure we do. 
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2011, 07:47:47 PM »
Sure we do. 
(click to show/hide)

And yet we are given absolutely no indication as to how that would be accomplished, let alone that it would be made possible by some residual sympathetic connection between Harry and the coin, or Harry and Lasciel.
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Offline zenten

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 07:51:27 PM »
And yet we are given absolutely no indication as to how that would be accomplished, let alone that it would be made possible by some residual sympathetic connection between Harry and the coin, or Harry and Lasciel.

He calls it, and it's there?

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2011, 07:58:41 PM »
He calls it, and it's there?

Right, and he just 'calls' Lea, or Toot.

"Here, coiny-coiny-coiny-coiny-coin!  Heeeere, coiny-coiny-coiny-coiny-coin!"
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Offline ways and means

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2011, 08:04:22 PM »
Right, and he just 'calls' Lea, or Toot.

"Here, coiny-coiny-coiny-coiny-coin!  Heeeere, coiny-coiny-coiny-coiny-coin!"

LOL
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There is also the issue as to whether the coin will be able to hear him through the concrete.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2011, 08:09:04 PM »
There is also the issue as to whether the coin will be able to hear him through the concrete.

Not after he dug it up and handed it over.
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Offline Nyarlathotep5150

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2011, 09:25:28 PM »
Since we have absolutely NO evidence to believe that a shadow can exist separate from its host, we must assume that a banished shadow IS a dead shadow.
   Which is why the most you can do is banish it back to the subconscious and temporarily cage it (like Harry did). This is also supported by the rules, where it says you can't just whip up a spell to solve every problem or end run around the story. Magic doesn't work like that. For major problems, the best you can do is temporarily alleviate the problem, or have the spell point you in the right direction (which in this case is convincing the tainted to willingly reject the coin).   

And we're not talking about a dimestore mortal spell, here.  We're talking a spell significantly more powerful than something that Harry Dresden, Wizard of the White Council of Magic, self-proclaimed as farm more adept with thaumaturgy than evocation, initially deemed impossible.
Steps one through twenty of this ritual are going to be figuring out how it's accomplished.
    And if such a spell were possible (and the rules of the game and theme of the novels heavily imply its not), then someone would have thought of it already. And Dresden would have just went to McCoy for a de-taintifying. And the church wouldn't have a problem with people people being corrupted and stealing back the coins.


    In addition, exorcism wouldn't work on a shadow, or the Fallen anyway, because they aren't possessing the target, they're there willingly. Unless the target rejects the coin and the source of temptation, he is allowing the shadow to be there (even if he doesn't want it there, he's saying its better than the alternative, which counts as consent).
    So, even if you could make a spell to get rid of the fallen/shadow without the target rejecting it, that would be a forcible altering of the subjects mind(the shadow is built of the subjects mind, and if the subject isn't rejecting it, then its there of his own free will) and a breach of the fourth law.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2011, 09:56:32 PM »
    So, even if you could make a spell to get rid of the fallen/shadow without the target rejecting it, that would be a forcible altering of the subjects mind(the shadow is built of the subjects mind, and if the subject isn't rejecting it, then its there of his own free will) and a breach of the fourth law.

Which is merely further argument that, should it be possible, members of the White Council, or their allies, would be highly unlikely to view such a measure as a feasible alternative, discounting it out of hand, and that, as such, that it has not been known to have occurred previously is even less argument against it being possible.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2011, 11:08:37 PM »
I don't see the Denarian 'shadow' as an entirely separate entity.  The fallen angel is tied to the coin - at least until you succumb to the shadow's temptation, it gives up on corrupting you and looks for a different victim, or you finally and irrevocably deny it.  

The shadow is part of the host.  It's your "anti-conscience".  It's temptation given personality.  Throwing it out would be severing a part of yourself...and probably drive you mad.  On the other hand, choosing to deny it is as simple as turning down power.  Simple, not always easy.  :)

In game terms, its an aspect change or equivalent.  At least it was for Harry since his trouble was the Temptation of Power and, possibly, Fallen Angel On My Shoulder.

That's my take.  YMMV.
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2011, 12:55:27 AM »
I see this as something that can not be done.  Dresden, with his "burn baby burn" attitude, is better at thaumaturgy than at blasting.  Between him and Bob there are a couple of things that have been established as "can't be done".

1) Cure Susan.  Bob didn't know of a cure and couldn't find one.  If the Merlin knew of one, he could have gotten Dresden to do anything for it - including proclaim "I'm no wizard - turn me over to the Red Court", so the Merlin with all of his resources didn't know of a cure for Red Court Infection.

2) Cure a Renfield.  There's a quote about how the original Merlin and a couple of saints tried and failed to restore someone who was mind blasted by a Black Court vampire.

3) Kill a Loup with anything except inherited silver.  I'm thinking that one might even survive a nuke (but he wouldn't be in good shape when he changed back).

To those, I would add:
4) Force the shadow of a Denarian from someone else's mind.

Richard

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2011, 01:16:31 AM »
To those, I would add:
4) Force the shadow of a Denarian from someone else's mind.

Richard

emphasis added

and again, absence of previous known success is not conclusive evidence of impossibility
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
Slough