New Player, Quick Questions

[Chris_Fougere]

We're gearing up to start a DFRPG story and I have a few questions as I read though the books.  First time using FATE in any form so it should be fun:)

1) How many Fate Points do NPCs start with?  I do have Strands of Fate as well and I know there's rules there I can adapt.
2) If an NPC is compelled by a PC, does the Fate Point go into a general pool or only for use by that NPC?
3) Are there "mook rules" anywhere or should I again simply adapt from Strands of Fate.

[Brand]

1.  YS 326-338 has guidelines for creating NPCs (this touches on your third question).  There are different categories of NPC (mortal, supernatural, multiple opponents, etc.) and things like Refresh are based on how much of a challenge you want the NPC to be to your party.

2.  I'll have to double-check the book, but I give the FP directly to the character who was compelled.

3.  I'm not familiar with such rules from SoF, but there are guidelines for building NPCs based on how tough one wants them to be.  Basic "mooks" (nameless NPCs on YS 327) will typically avoid taking consequences and concede if facing the threat of death.  They typically just go off the end of their stress tracks and are taken out.

**Edit**
For your second question, YS 106 says:

The only thing to keep in mind is that, if you're invoking an aspect on another PC or on a NPC to gain an advantage over them, that character will receive the fate point you spent, either at the end of the exchange (in conflict, see page 197) or at the end of the scene (outside of conflict).

Since the book says the FP goes to the character, I reserve it only for that NPC's use.

[sinker]

2) If an NPC is compelled by a PC, does the Fate Point go into a general pool or only for use by that NPC?

For me this always depends on the character being compelled. If it's a bigger NPC that gets a lot of face time and is going to be around for a bit then I give the FP to them. If they're a faceless mook in a group of faceless mooks then I'll usually let them share it since the mook being compelled usually means they won't be around to use it.

[mostlyawake]

I give the FP to the person that was compelled. However, in the case of "mooks" i often have a "behind the scenes" bad guy, who is getting a fate point or two for the fight (he's losing a fight that he sent proxies into, and he appeared in the scene, in a sense).   He then uses these to make declarations or the like to set up the next fight scene.

So, the group stumbles into a group of ghouls ransacking a house.  They lay down the heat, and the ghouls go splat.
Ghoul king gets a fate point for being in the scene (through proxies), and for the loss (because no one is taking consequences, or cashing out of the loss, i just give the ghoul king 1 FP).

Now he wants to get even, so in a few game days he uses a declaration to place some ghouls on the same subway as the group, then he uses a FP to increase the difficulty by 2 for the players to recognize that the ghouls are inhuman before they strike.

You could totally just make all of this up as a GM, without bothering with FPs, but tracking it helps me keep track of which bad guys have the most invested, already, in a game. If the group has been systematically eliminating red court hideouts, and the red court leader has like, 10 fate points, then I have a guideline of how much i should think about giving him in terms of allies, get-away options, ect for the inevitable show-down. If he's already used half of those fate points, then the final battle may be more scaled down.

Meanwhile, if the black court leader only has 1 fate point from the group, then they've either not bothered him enough to warrant a reaction (if this is the only point that he's ever gotten), or he's used up a lot of his current resources.  The players may still encounter BCVs, but the baddies won't necessarily have a situational advantage.

[toturi]

In the case of mooks, I only give the FP to the character behind the scene (for being there by proxy) if his proxies are not replaceable ie this is a group of almost named NPCs (his elite guard or something). If the proxies come from an infinite supply, then no FP.
I would also only give an FP for losing the fight if the character behind the scene suffers an actual consequence - this can be easily done with social consequences. His men lost the fight, so he takes a Social consequence for his guys losing the fight. So he is actually handicapped if the PCs bring it up (think Dresden calling in his marker on Maeve for the Something Borrowed case).
The more the character loses by proxy, the weaker he actually becomes. He doesn't get to accumulate a store of FPs by trading on his easily replaceable goons.

[mostlyawake]

In the case of mooks, I only give the FP to the character behind the scene (for being there by proxy) if his proxies are not replaceable ie this is a group of almost named NPCs (his elite guard or something). If the proxies come from an infinite supply, then no FP.
I would also only give an FP for losing the fight if the character behind the scene suffers an actual consequence - this can be easily done with social consequences. His men lost the fight, so he takes a Social consequence for his guys losing the fight. So he is actually handicapped if the PCs bring it up (think Dresden calling in his marker on Maeve for the Something Borrowed case).
The more the character loses by proxy, the weaker he actually becomes. He doesn't get to accumulate a store of FPs by trading on his easily replaceable goons.

Good points. Usually, I don't care if the main guy took a consequence, because he lost resources for the fight.

I do give the players an aspect for any discovered info via AN ALL CAPS PHRASE ON AN INDEX CARD.  It might literally only be "ATTACKED BY GHOULS WHO WERE BREAKING INTO OLD MARTHA'S HOUSE", which doesn't speak to the puppet-master at all, but it does give the group a free tag if they make it relevant. This usually gets used during the investigation, often by a player asking someone "Do you know anything about why I might have been ATTACKED BY GHOULS WHO WERE BREAKING INTO OLD MARTHA'S HOUSE?"

This could be seen as the consequence suffered by the enemy - they revealed part of their plan.  Alternatively, not getting the objective accomplished (not getting whatever item they were looking for) is also a consequence.  Remember, the player DID tag the consequence, against the mook, which is the discussion.  Where should that go?  So i don't feel bad cashing out a couple of fate points to the BBEG when the players probably tagged more consequences than that in a fight.   Well, maybe, as the mooks might not have fought through consequences anyways.

 

[toturi]

This could be seen as the consequence suffered by the enemy - they revealed part of their plan.  Alternatively, not getting the objective accomplished (not getting whatever item they were looking for) is also a consequence.  Remember, the player DID tag the consequence, against the mook, which is the discussion.  Where should that go?  So i don't feel bad cashing out a couple of fate points to the BBEG when the players probably tagged more consequences than that in a fight.   Well, maybe, as the mooks might not have fought through consequences anyways.

If the player tagged a Consequence against the mook, then the mook gets the FP. Unless a player tags a Consequence against the BBEG, he doesn't get an FP. Giving the BBEG FPs when the PCs tag the mooks Consequences seems unfair to me; afterall, the PCs probably used FPs to cause those Consequences. It is worth considering on the flip side: If the PCs use proxies to engage the BBEG, how much FPs do they get if their mooks lose the fight?

[noclue]

Giving a nameless mook a FP seems irrelevant. I'd give it to the big bad behind them. How many FPs do the PC's get if they act through proxies? None. Welcome to life as a protagonist.

[toturi]

Giving a nameless mook a FP seems irrelevant. I'd give it to the big bad behind them. How many FPs do the PC's get if they act through proxies? None. Welcome to life as a protagonist.

This is what I do not understand and it doesn't seem to be fair at all to me. If I, as the GM, am going to give the NPCs FPs when they act through proxies, then to be fair, I would do the same if the PCs do so.

The purpose of the Big Bad is to be defeated, his sole reason for existance in any game is to lose to the PCs, hence he shouldn't get any FPs. Welcome to life as the antagonist.

[noclue]

Why is fairness so important? Consistency yes, but fairness? In the books Harry is generally alone, injured and surrounded by baddies on all sides.

PCs have tons of resources at their disposal in DFRPG. They have all sorts of ways to earn Fate points through compels that NPCs never have. The whole game is built around compelling their aspects to drive the story forward.

How many Fate points are your mooks giving to the antagonist really? It's hardly unfair. IMHO, players should benefit from acting through their characters directly and often and from putting their characters at risk through compels. Players putting their characters in harms way makes for exciting scenes gets much fate. Playing it safe and acting through proxies is not appealing and gets no fate points.

NPCs are there for the GM to bring adversity to the player characters. Mooks are basically fire and forget ammo for the named baddy.

[toturi]

How many Fate points are your mooks giving to the antagonist really? It's hardly unfair. IMHO, players should benefit from acting through their characters directly and often and from putting their characters at risk through compels. Players putting their characters in harms way makes for exciting scenes gets much fate. Playing it safe and acting through proxies is not appealing and gets no fate points.

Thus the antagonist acting through proxies is not appealing and gets no fate points.
Harry is usually outclassed because the author chooses for him to be so and because the author already has a story planned out ahead.
IMHO, players should benefit from acting rationally through their characters and making as many smart and safe decisions as possible. If they accept compels to adverse situations, then it should be a calculated risk where the reward is well worth the risk. IMO, one of my favorite parts of the Dresden Files is when Dresden nails

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Peabody

by proxy. If it was a game, he should have got more FPs for that alone that all the FPs he got for all the action/adventure he got on

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Demonreach island

.

[noclue]

It seems we are looking a slightly different experience when we play. And certainly mooks getting or not getting FP wont break the game either way.

[Chris_Fougere]

So I think I figured out what I plan to do, primarily to keep my book keeping to a minimum.  I have a pretty decent sized play group (8 players and myself) so any combat/action scene with mooks is going to need a fair number of them and tracking individual FP for them will be a lot of trouble.  Conveniently though, we use poker chips which come in different colors:)

I`m going to adapt the Fate Point Pool idea from Strands.  The PCs get their intial allotment (we`ll use Red Chips) as normal.  The NPCs (all of them) start with a pool equal to the Refresh (we`ll use Blue Chips).  Each time new NPCs show up in the story they increase the pool by an amount based on their relevance.  Earnings and expenditures by NPCs go into the pool.  The Green Chips we`ll use for when the GM compels the PCs.  I think this will work quite well and we found playing Smallville that the players like having different color chips so they know where their Plot Points/Fate Points go for purposes of tracking the story.

[mostlyawake]

I understand your unfairness complaint.  So, to answer it, I'll explain why I still use it this way:

  If I were to send wave after wave of peons after the players, stockpile the earned fatepoints for the BBEG, then come into the final conflict with 10 fate points and burn them all up on a severe attack, then I would totally agree that giving the BBEG the points would be unfair.

I use the points instead as more of a pool from which to write scenes.  While I can certainly just proclaim that the bad guy has put snipers on the roof, booby-trapped the door, and taken the effort to invest in kevlar underneath a fireman's coat, it helps give me a limit of how many such conditions I should give the bad guy.  It also tells me that this BBEG is invested in the story (and players are probably invested in their struggle with him), when I see that he's got 6 fate points available.

Really, though, it serves as an indication of how worried the bad guy is about the players.  If they've trounced 3 of his best hit squads, then heck yes he's going to add extra layers of protection. 

This works pretty well for "uncovering aspects" as a bad guy, too.  I mean, you know your half-fae PC is a bit sensitive to cold iron.  But at what point does a DM reasonably declare that the bad guy knows this?

If you left a mook alive and he had uncovered this, he can certainly run tell daddy BBEG, who now not only knows your weakness but has a handy free tag for it.

But if you didn't make that mistake?   

Any DM can declare that the bad guy researched you.  But if the DM tracked that bad guy's interaction with fate points, and then marked off a fate point to roll on such a research (investigation, really) check, then you'd probably find that the DM pulls LESS of this "i know your weakness crap" than he would have previously. Because he's only given the bad guy 2 fate points, and needed them somewhere else. Like for the snipers.

So, basically, I've just become used to thinking of how the bad guys create their actions and available resources in a scene based on the game mechanics of manuevers and declarations, backed by a fate-point economy where they are earning points for their machinations.

And, to answer the question:  If the players sent in, say, the local PD, and the PD wiped, then someone in the group is probably getting at least a fate point out of it.  Because I'm going to make trouble with that later.