AOE Spell manuevers?

[ryanshowseason2]

Are these possible? I saw AOE rules for attacking in YS and manuever rules as well, but they never specified if AOE manuevers were possible... IE a grease spell to coat the ground with  slippery oil...or a AOE time slow effect to drop an aspect of slowed on all targets within.

Was this intentionally omitted? Overlooked? Horribly broken?

I don't think it is as long as its a one turn aspect. Paying for duration would have to be reworked though...

[DFJunkie]

Well, I suppose it would depend on the maneuver, but if you're talking about placing a purely magical maneuver on a zone I would treat it as a scene aspect that applies only to that zone.

Use the rules for attacking a zone, meaning the caster would need to assign 2 shifts of power to target the zone, plus another 2 if they wish to target multiple zones.  I would also handle duration the same way the book does for regular maneuvers, so we're talking 3 shifts for a magical maneuver, +2 per zone, +1 shift per exchange you want it to last. 

Once the Aspect (slippery, or mmmooovvviiinnnggg ssslllooowwwlllyyy) is in place the caster would get the usual free tag, and the Aspect could be compelled as normal. 

[ryanshowseason2]

A one time tag? or a free tag for every combatant who was put under the effect?

[DFJunkie]

No, just one free tag total.  The big deal here would be the fact that most of the folks in the zone should be getting compelled.

If you want a free tag on multiple people I'd say you'd treat it like a spray attack.  Split up the targeting roll, and each target must have the appropriate number of shifts assigned to them (3 or more, if the resisting skill is Great or better).  I'd allow persistence to be bought for all the Aspects together.

[sombranox]

Long time lurker, but just wanted to chime in on this one.

Not necessarily I suppose a maneuver, but for what you described, I'd just treat it as a single-action block against multiple people (allowed by YS 210 Resolving Blocks).

So like grease might be a block against movement as everyone falls on their butts.

Slow time might be block against attacks (though it'd be odd that they could move out of the zone, but not attack out of it).

The point is though, with a block you can lock down either all action on a single target or a specific sort of action on multiples.

If you're looking to lay aspects on people, then ignore this and go with what DFJunkie suggested. If just locking them down, then I think this would be simpler.

[bitterpill]

Remember when you use the one free tag to effect everyone in the area the effect can be having a tempary aspect so If the enemy decide not to pay a fate point then each enemy will have an aspect to tag. An example of this would be to compel the area aspect 'super slippery surface' to cause all people in the area to fall thus giving them the 'fallen' aspect. In away Junkies method is more broken because the only resistance the enemy has to this effect is to spend a fate point which makes the manouvre useful just to strip a bunch of your enemies of fate points.

[DFJunkie]

An example of this would be to compel the area aspect 'super slippery surface' to cause all people in the area to fall thus giving them the 'fallen' aspect.

I'm pretty sure that each person who would be compelled to fall in that scenario would get their own fate point, just like every individual who is affected by a scene aspect would. 

[bitterpill]

There is a debate whether they would get a fate point as non have been spend and so there are no fate points going around. 

[DFJunkie]

There is a debate whether they would get a fate point as non have been spend and so there are no fate points going around. 

Well I'm not aware of that debate, but if someone's being compelled (aside from a free compel via a tag) the person on the receiving end of the compel gets a fate point, at least in my game. 

On YS 107 it addresses the idea of PCs making mass compels, "Technically speaking, a player could try to use a scene aspect to initiate a mass compel, but it'd be a pretty expensive proposition - he'd have to spend a fate point for every character he wants to be affected by the compel."  Now, if you read that to mean that the only way that a group of NPCs can be compelled is via a player initiated compel that's fine, I can't think of any thing in the rules to contradict it.  On the other hand, I assume that NPCs are affected by scene aspects the same way that PCs are, so if they're trying to run or fight on a slippery floor I'd compel them to fall.  If a PC initiates the compel instead I'd give them a little more latitude to determine the effects of the fall, such as "he falls and drops his gun," or something like that.

[ryanshowseason2]

A spell shouldn't just effect the entire scene though that is way too powerful. I was thinking more along the lines of a temporary aspect that is taggable once on each afflicted npc/pc and dissapears at the end of the duration.

Now that aspect would effect the next action that involves the npc/pc for free. So an attacker may get the free tag or anyone defending against the afflicted npc/pc gets the free tag. Either way though the aspect is gone after the duration.

Compelling isn't a bad concept either though.

[DFJunkie]

A spell shouldn't just effect the entire scene though that is way too powerful.

Why?  If you shoot out the lights with a gun that could be a maneuver placing the dark aspect on the scene.  If you throw a molotov cocktail into the middle of your opponents it would place the on fire aspect there.  I would say the only difference between evocation maneuvers that affect scene aspects and regular ones is that the evocation maneuver has a defined duration.

Now that aspect would effect the next action that involves the npc/pc for free. So an attacker may get the free tag or anyone defending against the afflicted npc/pc gets the free tag.

This is the assumption I don't understand.  You have created a single aspect.  Therefore you get one single free tag, not one per affected person, to use or pass.  Yes, the next time they act they will have to contend with the new scene aspect, and may be compelled by it, but I think it would be a regular compel which they would get a fate point for accepting.

[devonapple]

Invoke-for-Effect/Compels should be working the same way as tags: spend a Fate Point, unless circumstances indicate that the tag should be free.

Note that a "free tag" for discovering or placing an Aspect can either be a +2 to a roll, a reroll, or an Invoke For Effect (I didn't get this last one for a long time).

The "disagreement" was settled by Fred Hicks awhile back (but people refused to accept it even at the time). He explains that usually, an Invoke for Effect is something that *helps* the player invoking it. However, when the Invoke for Effect ends up asking to do the same thing as a Compel (clearly causing a direct complication for the target), then the player invoking the Aspect still gets to do it for free, but at that point, the GM takes over, runs it as if it had been a Compel, and brokers a Fate Point to the NPC who was being Compelled by the Invoke for Effect.

What I'm more interested in is how to run AoE Aspects which allow a free tag, and I think that the Spray option is best for a Zonewide Maneuver placing a free-taggable Aspect.

What it sounds like folks want out of this slick spell, though, is a block on all actions.

My question, then, is this:

You can cast an Evocation Block that makes it either A) harder for one target to do any action (much like a grapple), or B) harder for everybody in the area to do one type of action (presumably to the caster, like a Veil, which is a Perception Block against perceiving the target), and neither of them require you spend two shifts to affect a whole Zone.

With this in mind, then:
1) is there a difference between:
    A) a Veil (Perception Block) making it hard for everyone in that and surrounding Zones to perceive the target, and
    B) a Grease Slick (Movement Block, or Attack Block, as you decide) making it hard for everyone in that Zone to perform that one action (movement or attack)?

If no, then it should be fair in the rules to make a Zonewide Evocation Block that makes it harder for all the targets in the area to do any action.

If yes, then you probably want to make it a ZoneWide effect simply to effect everybody with the single action Block. *THEN* the question is... how many shifts do you want to charge to make it Zonewide *and* a Block against all actions?

[devonapple]

Why?  If you shoot out the lights with a gun that could be a maneuver placing the dark aspect on the scene.  If you throw a molotov cocktail into the middle of your opponents it would place the on fire aspect there.  I would say the only difference between evocation maneuvers that affect scene aspects and regular ones is that the evocation maneuver has a defined duration.

The difference here is that these environmental Aspects can affect the players as well as the other NPCs. When The Building is On Fire, the GM can rain down Fate Points on everyone in that area to Compel them - players and NPCs alike.

In the FATE game economy, Aspects created or possessed by players represent plot *potential* (not plot actuality), and so players need Fate Points to activate that plot potential and make it manifest a narrative advantage or effect. Players do get an initial "free tag" for having discovered or placed an Aspect, but after that, it generally requires Fate points to keep the Aspect relevant to the fight.

[bitterpill]

I have found the best thing to do if you are a wizard who wants to use area of effect debilitation spells is flavoured attacks a flash bang is a physical attack that aims at causeing blindness or deafness as extreme concequences with a good first spell you are going to cause a concequence which you can then tag for all the benefits of a manouvre.

[DFJunkie]

The difference here is that these environmental Aspects can affect the players as well as the other NPCs.

So the issue you have with it is that the maneuver only affects a single zone?  If a player were to move into the affected area of an evocation maneuver they would become subject to the effects of that maneuver (possible compels) just like an NPC that's already there.

I wouldn't have a problem with a non-magical maneuver creating an aspect that applied only to a single zone, such as throwing out a bunch of marbles to give a zone bad footing or shooting up an already rotten wooden floor to give it ready to collapse.