Could a wizard turn himself into a WCV?

[Amseriah]

I have been thinking about this for a while now, but assuming that a wizard has enough refresh to buy the powers (I know, I know, not optimizing by dumping all available refresh into refinement), would it be possible to find the class of demon that are bound to WCV, summon it, and then either make a deal with it or just bind it outright to himself.  I feel like this would be able to go a long way to help out some of the darker wizards by giving them inhuman+ stats, and a type of Neuromancy that wouldn't be breaking the Laws of Magic.  Hell if he got the support of a House or started one of his own that got recognized by the Court the Wardens wouldn't be able to touch him anyway.  Is it even possible though (and I can't think of a reason that it couldn't be)?

[Sanctaphrax]

If the GM says it's possible, it's possible. If he says otherwise, it isn't.

Remember: this is fiction. Reality is what the authors say it is.

By the way, I'd allow it. Who am I to stand in a player's way like that?

[devonapple]

I imagine it would be easier to start out as a WCV and become a spellcaster than it would be to entice one of the WCV demons to essentially start a new bloodline. But Thaumaturgy is "a hell of a drug" and I can see it happening for someone who works hard enough.

[Tedronai]

Sure.  I mean...why NOT?

It's not going to be EASY by any means, and the deal such a demon is likely to demand from any PC would be a one-way ticket to NPC-hood (and for a character that's ALREADY an NPC...well, what's possible for them is whatever's necessary to get the story to where it needs to be to make/keep things interesting), not to mention likely involving numerous or large plot-driving 'payments' (orchestrating indulgences in the demon's emotion of preference on a truly grand scale - hundreds of simultaneous participants, or more, in a single event - for instance)

[knnn]

The other way to do it would be to ret-con it:

Make up some story about why the demon inside the wizard never awakened before (it was a blessing/curse from his loving mother, etc), then *something* triggers it (gets seduced by a White Court vampire/virgin, but feeds off the Whampire, killing it instead of dieing - but turning himself into a Whampire in the process).   You get the bonus of it being a serious Trouble - he doesn't know how to act like a vampire, has a hard time keeping the demon in check.  Doesn't know who his parents are, etc.

Or you could just go with:

A Whampire tries to eat him, but while fighting it off, he accidentally reverses the process, using his magic to feed off the Whampire, killing it and gaining the demon/hunger.

[tymire]

Why would you make it WCV?  If you are a wizard you should be able to ask for power from any type of critter from nevernever that is willing to offer it......   

[Nyarlathotep5150]

If the GM says it's possible, it's possible. If he says otherwise, it isn't.

Remember: this is fiction. Reality is what the authors say it is.

   I disagree. Dresden Files isn't D&D and the GM is no more "the author" than any other player at the table. I'd say, if the group consensus is that it would add something fun to the game, then it flies.

I agree with Devonapple though, that it would be easier for a WCV to learn magic.

[Amseriah]

Ah, I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear.  I was not wondering if there was a way to combine the templates.  I was thinking that a story where a wizard sought out an apotheosis of sorts, very much like House/Clan Tremere in oWoD.  So I understand that it would be easier metagame-wise to start off as a WCV and then move to learn magic, but that wasn't the intent behind the question. 

[devonapple]

Ah, I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear.  I was not wondering if there was a way to combine the templates.  I was thinking that a story where a wizard sought out an apotheosis of sorts, very much like House/Clan Tremere in oWoD.  So I understand that it would be easier metagame-wise to start off as a WCV and then move to learn magic, but that wasn't the intent behind the question. 

No need to worry - you were perfectly clear. I don't think we were giving a metagame answer or taking templates into account. Templates are easy - if you have the Refresh to take both, you can take both.

The issue is that the source fiction exclusively describes WCV as reproducing by bloodline, so you are going to see that most Dresden fans are going to balk at the idea of someone becoming a WCV by any other means (like this Tremere Apotheosis you mention). Dresden Files is a different setting than World of Darkness, and if there was a way to *make* someone a White Court Vampire, then that might have been discussed between Thomas and Justine at least once in the writing as a bittersweet solution to their awkward relationship, but it is never proposed.

That said, a GM could certainly write their story to make it possible. One could establish that the WCV Houses were, at one point in the distant past, pure mortals, and explain that they made pacts with a particular type of Demon, a genetic pact which would pass down through their bloodlines and ensure that this Hunger Demon would multiply in power through its children. If a GM set this up as a setting feature, then I can imagine it would be more plausible to seek out the attention of this Hunger Demon and try to start up a new bloodline.

But that would be a special thing which a GM sets up for their version of the Dresdenverse. But if we are sticking to the setting as written, then it is going to be near impossible to make someone WCV. And we all know that the Impossible is made Possible through Thaumaturgy. Which would probably accomplish the same effect as this Tremere Apotheosis.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

That said, a GM could certainly write their story to make it possible. One could establish that the WCV Houses were, at one point in the distant past, pure mortals, and explain that they made pacts with a particular type of Demon, a genetic pact which would pass down through their bloodlines and ensure that this Hunger Demon would multiply in power through its children. If a GM set this up as a setting feature, then I can imagine it would be more plausible to seek out the attention of this Hunger Demon and try to start up a new bloodline.

   Well, I'd say the implications of the setting lean very heavily toward either that explanation, or that they're scions of some greater Never Never being.
   I mean, when you look at the facts. They're born mortal. They take on their powers at puberty. They retain a mortal soul, but have a "demonic" symbiont attached to it... They seem to fall halfway between Changelings and possession.
   But I agree that, if this was brought about by ritual, that ritual was clearly lost. And to recreate it, and/or have any chance of pulling it off without killing yourself, we'd be talking about one of the most powerful wizards in history, researching and preparing for years.

[bitterpill]

A white court vampire house is the bloodline of someone who was possessed by a demon in my opinion. So to make yourself a white court vampire all you would have to do is find an emotion feeding demonic partner and allow it to possess you under a strict contract. You would be a completely peerless white court vampire and the enemy of pretty much everyone including the other white court factions.

[Richard_Chilton]

The problem might be the term WC.

Use another term for a creature that feeds off emotions and it doesn't matter how WC vampires reproduce.  Say a scion of Fetch or a wizard who bound a Fetch like being to himself.  You could use the same rules as the White Court uses and as long as you had the refresh to pay for everything then it would fit the RAW.

Just a suggestion.

Richard

[Cullen]

I'd say, if you wanted to have a wizard(ess) that bound him/herself to an emotion sucking demon, then it'd be perfectly fine.  That's all that a WC is, when you get down to the bare bones of it.  We have precedent that one can bind themselves to demons

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Hexenwolves, Denarians, etc

so that part is perfectly fine, in my head.  Where you get into unsteady waters seems to be in using the same exact demon that the WC are bound to.

The way I'd do it, is have my character bind him/herself to a demon that promised something similar to what the WC have.  I could see a wizard(ess) that was enamored with the WC, having a quest to become like them.  However, I'd have there be a catch to it.  Maybe they're nearly unable to control the powers they gained.  Keep in mind that Thomas, who's had this hunger for at least the past ten years, is nearly unable to control it.  Could you imagine all of a sudden being opened up to a hunger that you've never had before?  Maybe the hunger has sapped their magical energy or it's tied to their magic in some way now.  Also, I'd say the kind of person that would want to be like a WC probably would be more than just a little unhinged.

[Richard_Chilton]

Also, I'd say the kind of person that would want to be like a WC probably would be more than just a little unhinged.

It could happen as an accident or an unforeseen side effect.  The Tremere thing talked about at the start of the thread? Magic was fading from the world and a group of very powerful feared that their life extending magic would stop working.  They worked out a rite that would take the immortality from a vampire while leaving all the nasty bits of vampirism behind.  It didn't work out that way and they ended up as vampires.  In the same setting another group of wizards did something along the same lines (think they were trying to \Leave the Wheel of Life\ while still living in the world) and ended up worse - they became vampires who had eat flesh as well drink blood.

This could be a case of the player deciding to have an accident.

As for the adjustment period, if the person can't master their hunger within six months I can't see them ever mastering it.  Something like that could happen in the backstory and produce an Aspect like "Finally In Control" or "Barely Resisting The Need" or "I Had to Bury A Lot of Bodies".

It's doable, but we'd looking at a very conflicted character.  Messed up and maybe avoiding the White Council.  It's not one that I would probably play, but if their group is okay with it I'm sure it can work out.

Richard

[infusco]

If you're asking if it's canon and consistent of what we know of White Court Vampires in the Dresdenverse, no.

If you're asking whether your GM could allow you to do it, sure, why not ... a GM can theoretically allow you to be part man, part aircraft carrier if he or she so chooses.

Some of you may disagree with me, but I'm pretty damn certain that the 'demon' part of being a WCV isn't actually literal as it is a personification of the Hunger. There's no Demonic Co-Pilot attached to the WCV template and even Harry's use of the sight is highly laden in imagery and metaphor. The one thing we do know for certain is that White Court Vampires are born that way and either turn in their teens when they give it to their hunger, or find True Love/Hope/Courage/whatever and become human. There hasn't been a single example in the books of WCV that did not inherit it from birth.