Overpowered characters- Is it ever ok?

[DFJunkie]

Oh ye gods no.  Everyone's definition of powergaming is different, and the instant anyone posts an example a half-dozen other people will leap to defend the maligned archetype or whatever.

Personally I define powergaming as maximizing the utility of all available mechanical resources, with an eye towards selecting underpriced powers and avoiding overpriced ones.  It's not necessarily antithetical to good roleplaying.

To me, the problem comes about when you have a group of players who engage in different levels of power gaming (either due to disparate levels of ability, interest, or knowledge) and the people on the low end of the spectrum don't like that their characters are less relatively effective.

I might not have been very clear and I apologize. My wife was sick last night and our 3 month old was being fussy as I wrote it late last night. Sadly my personality disorder may bleed through as well. Not my intent. I am trying to word myself carefully and not to offend.

And I'm sorry if I wasn't clear that I was talking about a hypothetical critic and not you when I said that "it's not for you" can be an insult. 

[sinker]

I said there is a lot of planning to do to run this. Dresden is about planning and spending hours working things out. This is not a plug and play system like D&D. (I do not hate D&D). There are not a thousand adventures and a 4 Monster Manuals.  It can be difficult to run if you do not have the experience in high powered genres with a versatile system. It is very tricky and FATE is very open system like GURPs and Champions. Mostly GURPs. I like FATE hell of a lot more than GURPs (which is a system I do not like).

I have used DFRPG in a plug and play fashion. It works. I will agree that it can be difficult to run, but I would emphasize can be. I think it can also be fairly simple if set up right. To be fair I have a decent amount of experience and maybe my definition of simple is skewed.

Remember as I said as well. The characters are human and have flaws something you can exploit. Dresden has that happen to him all the time in the novels where even dealing with a simple matter can be hard if one of his Aspects comes into play. Talking to some Dresden GMs I know. Aspects seems to be the part many of them have difficulty running. One GM who did not have an issue compared the Aspects and Fate Point system to Deadlands with how chips are spent and used by both GM and Players.

I can agree with this wholeheartedly, and to be fair Deadlands is one of my favorite settings/systems. So again, my perspective may be in a different place.

I might not have been very clear and I apologize. My wife was sick last night and our 3 month old was being fussy as I wrote it late last night. Sadly my personality disorder may bleed through as well. Not my intent. I am trying to word myself carefully and not to offend.

I reread and edit before I post so I do not come off as a jerk. Sadly no matter how hard I try I do sometimes.

This is something that I can definitely identify with. Sort of. No kids as of yet, but when you're tired and the mood disorder gets the best of you... yeah. For that matter I believe my first post was likely fueled by hunger/mood disorder induced anger. Sorry if we got off on the wrong foot.

[BumblingBear]

I am not being elitist saying that. It is the issues I read on boards like for Mutant & Masterminds, GURPs etc as well as people posting a thousand times since this game started we need to power down the game right away.

Dresden Game depending on your group and starting power level can have a lot of power. Some GMs cannot handle that power nor have the background for it. Why I mentioned the games I ran. Hell they even have great suggestions on running games with a lot of power. I also said power level as well in my statement.

I agree.  I experienced this first hand.  While a more "low key", storytelling style GM who likes complete control /can/ use the DFRPG, there are much better systems out there for that style of game.

I should have said this to be more clear. If you think you cannot handle the power of a Submerged game don't run it run a lower leveled Dresden game. You do not need to be Submerged.

I don't necessarily agree with this.  The heart of the DFRPG is compels.  If a GM doesn't compel properly in a higher level game, they probably won't in a lower level game either.

The game is supposed to be dangerous.... because if in doubt, a character can concede.  That's a big change from other RPGs, but I think it's really cool.

I said there is a lot of planning to do to run this. Dresden is about planning and spending hours working things out. This is not a plug and play system like D&D. (I do not hate D&D). There are not a thousand adventures and a 4 Monster Manuals.  It can be difficult to run if you do not have the experience in high powered genres with a versatile system. It is very tricky and FATE is very open system like GURPs and Champions. Mostly GURPs. I like FATE hell of a lot more than GURPs (which is a system I do not like).

I pretty much agree with this too.  This is a terrible analogy, but running in or playing in a DFRPG can be a lot like pvp in an MMO.  It is not only necessary to know your part, but to understand the parts and abilities of everyone else as well.

I do not think DFRPG is good for super casual gamers (unless they are willing to put the time into it) or one shots.  The system streamlines and simplifies a lot of things, but compared to other systems the concepts are so alien that it takes a bit of reading to truly get familiar with the mechanics.

Remember as I said as well. The characters are human and have flaws something you can exploit. Dresden has that happen to him all the time in the novels where even dealing with a simple matter can be hard if one of his Aspects comes into play. Talking to some Dresden GMs I know. Aspects seems to be the part many of them have difficulty running. One GM who did not have an issue compared the Aspects and Fate Point system to Deadlands with how chips are spent and used by both GM and Players.

I agree 100%. I left a game a while back because the GM was not using aspect correctly and it was causing frustration on my part.  After experiencing how that game ran and comparing it to GOOD games on podcasts and in the play-by-post on this site, it is obvious that compels and a good pacing are critical to a successful game.

I might not have been very clear and I apologize. My wife was sick last night and our 3 month old was being fussy as I wrote it late last night. Sadly my personality disorder may bleed through as well. Not my intent. I am trying to word myself carefully and not to offend.

I reread and edit before I post so I do not come off as a jerk. Sadly no matter how hard I try I do sometimes.

Pshhh - I just let it all hang out.  It may not endear me to some, but I hate diluting what I am trying to say. 

[Sanctaphrax]

@ways and means: Here's a powergamed character for you. I'm not saying that this is a perfect build by any means, but it's absolutely lethal in combat and at least halfway competent outside of it.

Skills (Beast Form):
Superb: Weapons, Athletics
Great: Might, Alertness
Good: Endurance, Conviction
Fair: Discipline, Fists
Average: Stealth, Presence
Skills (Human Form):
Superb: Rapport, Contacts
Great: Empathy, Resources
Good: Presence, Conviction
Fair: Discipline, Weapons
Average: Deceit, Alertness
Stunts:
Sword Focus (Weapons): +1 to hit when attacking with a sword.
Sword Specialization (Weapons): +2 stress when attacking with a sword.
Powers:
True Aim [-1]
Beast Change [-1]
Human Form [+1]
     Inhuman Strength [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch (paper weapons) [+3]
Item Of Power (Suit) [+2]
     Feeding Dependency (Water) [+1]
             Supernatural Speed [-4]
Total Refresh Cost:
-7
Refresh Total:
1

[Belial666]

You forgot that some IoPs are indestructible and a full body suit could well be armor 3 from "it is what it is" 


Of course, the limitations are ridiculously non-limiting for what they do - I don't think they'd be allowed.

[BumblingBear]

@ways and means: Here's a powergamed character for you. I'm not saying that this is a perfect build by any means, but it's absolutely lethal in combat and at least halfway competent outside of it.

Skills (Beast Form):
Superb: Weapons, Athletics
Great: Might, Alertness
Good: Endurance, Conviction
Fair: Discipline, Fists
Average: Stealth, Presence
Skills (Human Form):
Superb: Rapport, Contacts
Great: Empathy, Resources
Good: Presence, Conviction
Fair: Discipline, Weapons
Average: Deceit, Alertness
Stunts:
Sword Focus (Weapons): +1 to hit when attacking with a sword.
Sword Specialization (Weapons): +2 stress when attacking with a sword.
Powers:
True Aim [-1]
Beast Change [-1]
Human Form [+1]
     Inhuman Strength [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch (paper weapons) [+3]
Item Of Power (Suit) [+2]
     Feeding Dependency (Water) [+1]
             Supernatural Speed [-4]
Total Refresh Cost:
-7
Refresh Total:
1

Meh.

I wouldn't allow a feeding dependency: water and I don't think anyone else would either.  A feeding dependency isn't a feeding dependency if it doesn't cause moral or logistical problems.

This character is powerful, but not ridiculously OP... like the artificer on steroids.

Having a handfull of 10 shift veils to get away from any trouble and a bunch of 10 shift attacks, in addition to items to potentially bump up social rolls all by submerged power level is crazy ridiculous.