Red Court Vampire Catch

[Nyarlathotep5150]

  I'd still advise only letting it cancel toughness powers, instead of taking away all their inhuman powers. That would be insanely powerful. The vague flavor text can be emulated easily enough by having most RCV's (the nameless lackeys), just concede the fight if an attack bursts their bloodsack (enough to give them a consequence to that effect, which would take out most peons anyway), without the added possibility of a good shot leaving an ancient and major NPC completely powerless. Because even if the NPC wants to buy out (which he may not have the refresh to do at all), a Pure Mortal, or "low power" PC could easily up the ante to the maximum 3 fate (which the NPC almost certainly can't afford), and reduce the whole encounter (and maybe the whole case) to a single roll.

   Also, I'd personally give the RCV a +2 to the defense roll if he still has his flesh mask on (its hard to target what you can't see, and the vamp can shift around inside the mask).
   

[Howl]

I'm familiar with the aim rules (manoeuvre to place an "In My Sights" aspect or something similar). But what're the called shots rules? I'm not familiar with them.

-EF

I dont have the books in front of me right now, but its placing a maneuver on the target basically. You hit the RCV in the belly, and place an aspect on him...like a "Ruptured blood sack" aspect which you can tagg or invoke for effect...or to get a straight reroll or +2 bonus on your next attack.

[bitterpill]

I think you should be able to cancel the catch just by saying that your aiming for it, but considering gutting someone is at least severe argueably an extreme concequence I do think you could use the aspect 'gutted' to compel for effect a hunger test which if they fail they lose thier powers in line with feeding dependancy.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Would it be acceptable for anyone to make it a consequence (say, moderate, depending on what people want to do) that can then be either Invoked for bypassing the catch, or Compelled to just take them out of the fight? Honestly, the way they books are written they would likely concede at that point anyway, but that does seem like a simple solution.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

   Making it a consequence doesn't really make sense. All of the side effects of bursting the blood bladder are flavor text that can be covered by consequences, but for overcoming the catch all you have to do is aim for the stomach. It says right in their write up, "no armor on belly".
    By making it a consequence you're saying that they have armor on the belly until you burst the bladder, which is not how its portrayed in the books.
     The easiest way is to make a called shot, or make it an assessment based on their high concept, either way the rules for it are about the same.

[bitterpill]

My personal idea was if you knew about the red court vampires weakness you could aim at it in a standard attack, the reason that concequences came into it was for the effect of causing the red vampire to loose all its blood rather than bypassing the armour which I think you can do just by saying you are attacking the weakened stomach.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

  I was responding to the post immediately preceding mine.
   But, the, "just say so" approach doesn't really seem like a good fix to me. Its basically allowing anyone who's ever fought an RCV (or can make an obvious logical inference from their description) to take away all the bad guys powers just by saying they do.
    And in any case, any of these systems for that side effect are silly because 1) that side effect was flavor text, not in their write up, and 2) all the systems that are being proposed ignore that same flavor text. The text says

        "their bellies are a vulnerable point; strike them correctly and hard enough, and all the blood they’ve consumed spills out, often leaving them too weak to fight."

     It doesn't say "severely weakened". It doesn't say "Loses all his powers" (which assumes we're playing Vampire the Requiem, where you have to spend blood to use powers. Thats not how feeding works in Dresden. If they exert themselves, they get hungry. It has nothing to do with using that blood to fuel their powers). It says "too weak to fight", if you're too weak to fight you were taken out, or you conceded. There's no way to be too weak to fight and not have lost the fight.

[zenten]

However you do it, I see the effects as being limited to:

You have bypassed the armour.

and that the vampire will *have* to feed if it wants funky powers in the next scene.  Not this scene, next scene.

[bitterpill]

However you do it, I see the effects as being limited to:

You have bypassed the armour.

and that the vampire will *have* to feed if it wants funky powers in the next scene.  Not this scene, next scene.

I agree with you but I believe forcing an enemy to have roll discipline against hunger this scene is within the realms of possibility for invoking for effect it is then their choice if they want to pay a fate point not to do so.

I think a seasoned fighter of red court vampires would allways aim for their weakness because that is logical and that is the reason why the red court catch is so high.

[DFJunkie]

I'll second (or third, or whatever) the idea that going for the gut would negate their armor value.  If you need a tag/invocation to hit it no one ever would, since you'd essentially be spending a FP to negate a -1 to your calculated damage, which is less beneficial than a +2 on your attack.

[Becq]

I think I'd tend to treat the RCV's belly as a facet of their High Concept.  Basically, it allows anyone who is 'in the know' (which might require a Lore check) to spend Fate at part of an attack to invoke the RCV's HC.  Doing so would generate the usual +2 for invoking aspects for an attack, but the attack would ignore Toughness powers.  Any consequences generated should reflect the damage done to the RCV's belly, and such consequences would not be eligible for Recovery powers.  Note that the RCV would get the Fate point spent (due to his aspect being invoked), and that his powers (including Tougness and Recovery) would remain active against any other attacks (though tagging the consequence to prevent use of Feeding-related powers would be reasonable).  Hunger-related HC compels might also become appropriate.

Summary: The attacker is exploiting the RCV's flaw to get more than the usual benefit from an aspect invocation, and the RCV is getting the Fate point to compensate them for the complication their flaw imposes on them.

[bitterpill]

I kind of have a problem with people having to spend fate points to decide the outcome of thier own actions, I think that a player shouldn't have to spend a fate point (luck) to attack the belly and if they attack the belly this will bypass the red vampire catch as the belly is part of the red vampires catch. It seems asking for fate point to attack the belly is the same as asking a fate point for your sword being made of iron to hurt fae as your sword is made of iron regardless of whether you spend a fate point or not. 

[Becq]

I kind of have a problem with people having to spend fate points to decide the outcome of thier own actions, I think that a player shouldn't have to spend a fate point (luck) to attack the belly and if they attack the belly this will bypass the red vampire catch as the belly is part of the red vampires catch. It seems asking for fate point to attack the belly is the same as asking a fate point for your sword being made of iron to hurt fae as your sword is made of iron regardless of whether you spend a fate point or not. 

Yes, but why would anyone *not* attack the belly?  And what would be the downside in always doing so?  In other games, there would be some penalty to hit associated with the called shot, but there really isn't a called shot mechanic in the game.  There is, however, a High Concept which carries a weakness, and the rules do allow players to invoke other player's aspects in appropriate situations ... like this one.  In effect, the knowledge of the RCVs weakness gives you a new option on how to spend your Fate points ... and also makes spending that Fate more powerful than normal.  At the same time, players can't hit the belly *every time*, because there's a limit to how much Fate they are willing to spend to do so.

[bitterpill]

I think the limitation on you aiming for belly all the time is the the vampire can invoke its own high concept to defend against this type of attack. If you allways attack the same area all the time then the opponent could either invoke thier red court vampire aspect to protect their weakspot or make a decleration that the enemy is allways attacking the same spot and invoke that for a +2.