Spellcasters make the others obsolete?

[finarvyn]

I don't think that non-spellcasters are "obsolete" but I do think they can feel unloved if the GM isn't careful. By this I mean that Harry tends to drive the action in the books, and since Harry is a spellcaster most of the examples of action we see in the books feature spellcasters. A GM needs to look for ways to put players in situations where other talents become valuable to the team.

[noclue]

we've got two casters, a reborn emissary of the mesopotamian god of the dead and a totally mundane medic with lots of guns. nobody is overshadowing anyone.

[Amseriah]

All I have to say in regards to Wizards being overpowered is, have you seen a Knight of the Cross in action?  With weapons of 5, conviction of 5, and your Righteousness active you have base attack and defense score of 11.  You also go through all forms of armor and toughness.  Oh and Righteousness can be used in sooooo many different reasons.  So no, I really don't feel that Wizards are overpowered.

[bitterpill]

All I have to say in regards to Wizards being overpowered is, have you seen a Knight of the Cross in action?  With weapons of 5, conviction of 5, and your Righteousness active you have base attack and defense score of 11.  You also go through all forms of armor and toughness.  Oh and Righteousness can be used in sooooo many different reasons.  So no, I really don't feel that Wizards are overpowered.

I am pretty certain you are wrong about righteousness, nowhere does it say that it adds 5 to you dice bonus, the max it can give you is a plus 1 due to conviction being higher than your roll.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think that you might be misinterpreting the effect of Righteousness, Amseriah. I am fairly certain that it doesn't add your Conviction to all of your other skills.

As for the thread topic, I have a high-refresh game going on right now with a Mythic Strength-using half giant character who has pretty much stomped everything in his path so far. I'm pretty sure that he's done better than an equivalent spellcaster would have done in his situation.

[Amseriah]

Huh...teaches me to just read sidebars.  I've really been screwing that up in our game.  As a side note:  with this being the case, and only being able to get a +1 to a roll, how the hades to KotC SURVIVE conflicts with Denarians?  I know that they can hit them hard without the armor and toughness, but really with no access to any of the inhuman+ stats that the Denarians have, they won't ever go first, they have no soak to speak of, and combats are going to last more than 1 exchange.  They never really talk about the overturn on that gig to be that high...in fact it seems like most of them get to retire before they meet their Boss.  I am really thinking about them talking about Shiro dueling them and surviving solo, not gangs of good guys vs. one bad guy.

[toturi]

Huh...teaches me to just read sidebars.  I've really been screwing that up in our game.  As a side note:  with this being the case, and only being able to get a +1 to a roll, how the hades to KotC SURVIVE conflicts with Denarians?  I know that they can hit them hard without the armor and toughness, but really with no access to any of the inhuman+ stats that the Denarians have, they won't ever go first, they have no soak to speak of, and combats are going to last more than 1 exchange.  They never really talk about the overturn on that gig to be that high...in fact it seems like most of them get to retire before they meet their Boss.  I am really thinking about them talking about Shiro dueling them and surviving solo, not gangs of good guys vs. one bad guy.

I'd say that the Boss doesn't let his guys get ambushed (perhaps as a compel on the D-coin guys' high concepts), the D-boys are usually beating on someone else who can't resist when the Fists of God come along(which means they get to use Desperate Hour); looking at the 3 KOTCs in OW, all 3 would have an equivalent of Superb or better defense. And Shiro has Fantastic Weapons and an Aspect that says how 1337 a swordsman he is.

[Sanctaphrax]

I agree with Toturi. Also, the Denarians' superior physical powerset would be fairly useless most of the time. The Toughness and Recovery powers get ignored by the Swords, and the Strength powers only matter if they can land a hit. Thanks to high Weapons, True Aim, Righteousness, and bucketloads of fate points, that should very rarely happen.

But I wasn't satisfied with that explanation, so I made a stronger version of Shiro. I wanted him to deserve the title of "world's greatest swordsman". So, here it is:

Shiro Yoshimo (Scuba Diving)

High Concept: Knight Of The Cross
Other Aspects: Boundless Virtue, No Greater Love, Swordsman Without Peer, Wielder Of Fidelacchius, Faith Demands Sacrifice
Skills:
Fantastic: Weapons
Superb: Conviction
Great: Lore, Discipline, Presence
Good: Alertness, Athletics, Endurance
Fair: Fists, Stealth, Contacts, Empathy
Average: Might, Rapport, Resources, Investigation, Survival
Stunts:
Righteous (Conviction): +2 to Conviction for the Righteousness power.
Riposte (Weapons): sacrifice next action to counterattack after a successful defence with Weapons.
Footwork (Weapons): use Weapons to defend against ranged attacks.
Duelist (Weapons): +2 to Weapons when defending against a single opponent.
Devastating Slashes (Weapons): attacks with swords inflict 2 extra stress.
Master Of The Blade (Weapons): +1 to all attacks with a sword.
Powers:
Bless This House [-1]
Guide My Hand [-1]
Holy Touch [-1]
Righteousness [-2]
Sword of the Cross (Fidelacchius) [-3]
Total Refresh Cost:
-14
Refresh Total:
3

[bibliophile20]

Damn.  World's greatest swordsman indeed.

[Tbora]

The only thing I dislike on threads like this is the idea that the wizard needs to be hampered repeatedly to make the other players more valuable.   I'd hate to play a wizard in such a campaign...

"OH your wizarding powers are irrelevant here because it's RAINING HEAVILY, AGAIN.  Time for the werewolf to get a spotlight!"

At some point it becomes really obvious and annoying that the wizard is being constantly hampered.

It's cool to do this when it's appropriate - like, when it should be raining outside (the campaign enters the rainy months when your characters are deep in the Amazon, or something, the bad guy is afraid of wizards and intentionally waits for rain, ect), but if the wizard is constantly facing scripted limitations, then he's being punished for his choice of character.

At the same time you have to keep in account that his character choice is not detracting from the fun of the rest of the group. The needs of the many supersede the few after all.

[Moriden]

At the same time you have to keep in account that his character choice is not detracting from the fun of the rest of the group. The needs of the many supersede the few after all.

I really don't understand the obsession with having characters be "balanced". Ive played overpowered characters ive played underpowered ones, and enjoyed both. It seems to me that creating a story that accurately reflects the world in which your playing should be far more important.

[UmbraLux]

I really don't understand the obsession with having characters be "balanced". Ive played overpowered characters ive played underpowered ones, and enjoyed both. It seems to me that creating a story that accurately reflects the world in which your playing should be far more important.

Yes, there's a difference between 'power balance' and meta-game 'play balance'.  DFRPG does a fairly good job of the latter and completely ignores the former.  Not a bad thing.

[deathwombat]

Remember the write ups in  Our World are posibly underpowered in some cases..........

[Moriden]

Yes, there's a difference between 'power balance' and meta-game 'play balance'.  DFRPG does a fairly good job of the latter and completely ignores the former.  Not a bad thing.

Problem being that so many people look at what casters can do an have a kneejerk reaction of "thats o.p., no you cant do it", then end up have more house rules then their where rules to begin with.

[UmbraLux]

Not sure I'd call it 'kneejerk'.  Different groups look for different things in a game system.  I can understand a desire for in-game as well as meta-game balance, even help when the issue is interesting.  God knows I've made some fairly drastic changes to game systems in the past! 

I do agree it's worth pointing out that it isn't a flaw in the game, it's a feature some simply prefer to house rule away.  It's even worth bringing up the meta-game balance factors. 

To answer the OP's specific questions:
-How do you manage your spellcasters in your game?  The fate point economy is a big part of any character's power.  Compel one character repeatedly while not compelling another and the compellee will be able to throw down big.  The compels themselves also tend to be limitations by nature more often than not.  A second method is managing scene length and zone breadth.  While combat scenes typically span seconds to a minute or two and cover only a few zones, a chase scene could cover hours and a much higher number of zones.  A running combat would fit somewhere in between.  In other words, don't plan stand up knock down battles against a wizard.  That leads in to tactics.  Evocation needs line of sight.  Use cover!  Or obscurement - a smoke grenade can do wonders.  Better yet, tear gas.    Finally, put the wizard on the defensive.  The more spells he uses on defense, the less available for offense...and he only gets three to four consequence free spells per scene.

-How do you create challenge that others will excel at and where the spellcaster won’t “steal the show”?  Long scenes, covering multiple zones, with enemies avoiding the wizard's line of sight.  Multiple opponents in several zones.  Tough opponents who's catch is something physical - metal for example.  Misdirection.  Consider how many spells a glamour wielding fae might lead the wizard into using unnecessarily.  Hit and run attacks...extremely fast opponents such as vampires can move into a zone, attack, and keep moving to another zone.  Don't forget zone borders where appropriate either.   

-Would it be more appropriate to have a full spellcaster campaign?  If that's what you want, it works.  I wouldn't term it "more appropriate" but it is a valid option.