Offensive options for physical combat, or "Is Fists made of Fail?"

[danthehut]

I wish i could have "liked" the first two responses in this thread.

[Seb Wiers]

Yes, game-mechanics wise, there is very little to recommend fists over guns or weapons.  You can't accidentally kill somebody in DFRPG, fists flat out do less damage than weapons, and weapons can grant special aspects etc.

But story wise, using the Fists skill can make all sorts of sense.  First, its one of the few combat skills that "civilians" might train to high levels.  And as mentioned, bringing a weapon with you is often considered rude, or can get you in trouble with the cops.  Also, you don't always want a weapon in your hands during a fight; fists leaves your hands free for anything you like (such as grappling, taking the enemies weapon away, picking up the McGuffin, etc).

Even mechanics-wise, fists aren't so bad; you don't hit any less often, and only do a bit less stress with each hit.  If you have some maneuvers to tag, you can still stack up quite a hit.  And since you often have to draw on the first attack (-1 supplemental action) to use a weapon, which might cause you to miss, the gap is smaller than it looks.  As long as you have a strong defense and don't let maneuvers against you pile up, you can wear the enemy down; your fights just last a bit longer than they would if you used a weapon.  And story wise, that can be a good thing!

[toturi]

If you are looking at game balance, there are some things that can shift the balance point.

If guns and weapons become rarer and/or more restricted, Fists become much more attractive as an offensive option. However, it can also follow that if guns and weapons become harder to lay your hands on, then the characters that have magical strength and/or claws have a greater advantage since there isn't much mundane mortals can do to try to equalise the imbalance.

This is one thing I have considered for game set in places where gun laws and other weapon laws are highly restrictive.

[EdgeOfDreams]

Even mechanics-wise, fists aren't so bad; you don't hit any less often, and only do a bit less stress with each hit.

I would disagree somewhat, at least in the groups I've played with.  The difference between even 2 extra damage on each hit and 0 is substantial, especially when you consider that tied hits do nothing to wear down your opponent if you don't have a damage bonus. Thus, players without a damage bonus have to beat an opponent's defense by at least 1 instead of tying in order to make progress in a fight.  Against enemies with Armor it gets worse: a weapons user can tie against an Armor:1 or even 2 foe and still maybe wear him down a little, while a fists user with no damage bonus has to win the roll by at least 2 or 3, which is pretty long odds.

[Steppenwolf]

I think it's a matter of situations.
If you are to stubborn to Attack when you are reasonably sure that you cannot do any real harm it's your own fault if you are not useful at all in the fight
Maneuver and Block!!!
Distract that bad guy so you sniper friend can open a crater in his head.
Protect the wizard while he set all the scene on fire.

Then, when the bad guys have captured you all and stripped of your possessions let them taste your punches.

[Seb Wiers]

I would disagree somewhat, at least in the groups I've played with.  The difference between even 2 extra damage on each hit and 0 is substantial, especially when you consider that tied hits do nothing to wear down your opponent if you don't have a damage bonus.

Fair enough; the fisty character I play is probably not typical.  He's generally hitting with fists 5, inhuman strength, and some aspects (maneuvers set up by friends, inflicted consequences) and a fate point (tagging personal aspects).  And yeah, given the same refresh cost / skill points, he could be nastier with a weapon; I still think (or maybe hope) its enough.

If the problem is that you need to bypass a catch, wrapping your fists in silver / cold iron chains (or holy beads, or whatever) can do the trick.  I punched a red court vamp with a vial or holy water held between my knuckles; was only good for a shot or two, but that is all it took.

I'm not saying it is "as good".  I'm saying its an option you can live with, if you like it for other reasons and base a build on it.

[Drachasor]

Fists have some advantages over other weapons.

Defense:
You can't defend with guns at all.
Weapons can defend against weapons and fists.
Fists can normally only defend against fists, but with one talent they can defend against anything athletics can.  Pretty nice (no need to worry about athletics for defense).

Offensively they aren't necessarily that great, but you can buff them in three ways.
The cheap way is brass knuckles.
A more expensive way is the talent that lets you pick a few weapons that use fists.
An even more expensive way is Claws, but this is pretty nice (and you can grab Human Guise or the like to hide those claws for free).

So with a little investment, fists can cover a LOT of ground so you don't need to worry much about other skills and you can also always use them even if disarmed.

[Team8Mum]

There are also roleplaying effects, as Harry points out in the books you can be arrested for simply having a concealed weapon with out a permit.
In uk based games (where I am) you don't even have the option of getting a permit. Even if you have a weapons licence the gun has to be kept at a range and access is limited. I have personally witnessed Armed response officers  turning out for a BB guns and there was a case a few years ago when they shot a guy weilding a katana in a city street. Those guys tend not to be interested in sitting down for a chat and a cup of tea with some one holding a 'dangerous weapon'.
There are ways of redressing the balance outside of the actual combat if you want to dissuade your players from wandering around like armed thugs.

[Barrington]

Fists can also be a very viable build if you take the right stunts. They do take a bit more refresh/Aspect juggling to get right, but I played a character who was keeping right up with his gunslinger partner in our Dresden game, hitting for seven to nine shifts of damage every time he swung a punch. It's true that armor or range can render a Fists monster useless, but that's why you have the other characters And besides, there's nothing like rolling and your GM telling you, "You feel something give way under your fist and his head snaps around with a sickening crack." Unless it's doing it three times in a row 
--

YOU ARE SO SMALL! IS FUNNY TO ME!

[toturi]

In uk based games (where I am) you don't even have the option of getting a permit. Even if you have a weapons licence the gun has to be kept at a range and access is limited. I have personally witnessed Armed response officers  turning out for a BB guns and there was a case a few years ago when they shot a guy weilding a katana in a city street. Those guys tend not to be interested in sitting down for a chat and a cup of tea with some one holding a 'dangerous weapon'.

Heh, you should try it where I live. UK police response is pretty tame compared to the police where I come from. I see groups of police in tac vests and SMGs backed by riot vehicles patrolling city streets every weekend afternoon. You should have seen what happened when a terrorist managed to escape custody a few years back.

[bitterpill]

Heh, you should try it where I live. UK police response is pretty tame compared to the police where I come from. I see groups of police in tac vests and SMGs backed by riot vehicles patrolling city streets every weekend afternoon. You should have seen what happened when a terrorist managed to escape custody a few years back.

I love it when you get actual examples of escalation, the American Police have to be better armed because any nut can have a lethal weapon in America. 

[toturi]

I love it when you get actual examples of escalation, the American Police have to be better armed because any nut can have a lethal weapon in America. 

Huh? What does American police have to do with my example?

[bitterpill]

Sorry I assumed you were from the US and so I could make a comment about gun control, consider my comment redacted.

[toturi]

Sorry I assumed you were from the US and so I could make a comment about gun control, consider my comment redacted.

My country has tighter gun control than the UK.

Which often makes me wonder if DFRPG and the Dresdenverse in general are meant to be set in areas where the civilian mortals are unlikely to meaningfully resist supernatural monsters.

[nearchus]

Yes, game-mechanics wise, there is very little to recommend fists over guns or weapons.  You can't accidentally kill somebody in DFRPG, fists flat out do less damage than weapons, and weapons can grant special aspects etc.

A player can't accidentally kill a character with their own character, but your character can certainly accidentally kill someone. If players are consistently having their characters attack others with lethal weapons and never killing any of them (or only killing the ones they want and conveniently not killing the ones they'd prefer not to) then this is "fine", in the sense that the rules allow for it. If everyone at the table feels that this is reasonable, and more importantly fun, then go for it. My guess is that such a game is also less interested in the consequences of escalating a conflict to lethal levels (or possible even the distinction between lethal and non-lethal physical conflicts). If this is the case, then there's very little to argue that Fists isn't an inferior skill. But for the rest of the games out there, Fists does have a "mechanical" purpose.