Greater Glamour

[Beyrs]

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong topic and if this has been answered else where but I could not find it.  I was wondering how Greater Glamours work.  Is it it used like evocations or like thaumaturgy?  If you could supply examples I would greatly appreciate it.  In the book it supplies mechanical differences but gives no examples.  Any information would be greatly helpful.  Also how long do they last and does it change the shift?

[Tedronai]

Glamours (and Greater Glamours by extension) act neither as evocations nor as thaumaturgy.  They are simply what they are.

Used to effect a Veil, the character rolls their choice of Discipline or Deceit, which functions as a block against Perception.  Since neither power mentions a duration, it's probably best to assume that it lasts the scene (or until dispelled or dismissed).  Greater Glamours offers an additional option of either a +2 bonus or an enlarged veil.

Similarly with Seemings, but with a more subtle, and versatile, deception.  Greater Glamours provides a +2 bonus.

True Seemings is effectively just a license to say 'yeah, I have one of those right here' for whatever you might need in any given situation, up to and including the ill-defined 'creatures'.  The limits of this power do not seem to be defined.

[Amseriah]

A huge thing to remember regarding Glamours and Greater Glamours is that they don't use mental stress to use.  So with them you can veil for free, create illusions for free, etc.  I know that this is probably not the way that a lot of other people feel like it could be used, but I could even see Greater Glamours used as an attack.  I doesn't say anywhere that True Seemings can't be used to create realistic lightning bolts or fireballs.  I personally feel that this explains why, (Changes spoiler)

(click to show/hide)

Lea wasn't getting tired or winded at all during the huge RCV fight in Changes

.

[Tedronai]

Do remember, that she's said to be around, if not beyond, the power range of a Faerie Lady.  She's in 'Plot Device' territory.

[HWalsh]

Jumping in here for a moment...

(I'm actually Beyr's GM)

I, granted, am new to running the Dresden Files RPG (and the FATE system in general) and since he's seeking information for the group I'm going to need page quotes before I can make a final decision here.

I'm slamming into a couple problems:

Tedronal, you made the statement:
"Glamours (and Greater Glamours by extension) act neither as evocations nor as thaumaturgy.  They are simply what they are."

While it is nice to say this, and technically you are correct as far as thematic reasoning goes, as far as game mechanics however that is a completely different situation.

According to the information in "Your Story" the heading under "Glamour" gives no rules, nor does it say that it does not follow the standard rules for "Veils" which are laid out on page 276 of "Your Story" this leads me to believe that a player character with "Glamour" can use glamour to create a veil as per Evocations.

Which sends us to "Your Story" page 255 - Utilizing the side bar found there we see the system for veils.

Thus, not only do they cause mental stress, as per any spell casting, but they do it in the exact same way. You spend your power, you take your hit, and you move on. Remember, in the books Harry also doesn't get mentally winded every time he hurls a spell either. He's done some pretty impressive things without seemingly taking any mental stress. Game mechanics however work differently.

The reason why characters wouldn't take (as much) noticeable stress is because Veils take a smaller amount of power than other uses of power and because they last until pierced.

So, whereas Harry will (in the books) have to cast 3-4 spells before getting winded (which when we look at this game that means, assuming he is using rotes) around 3-4 mental stress total. A veil, which is kept up for however long the scene is, would only require one activation and would only cost effectively 1 "power" and thus only 1 mental stress, thus only accumulate 1/4 as much mental stress.

As to the game itself the question becomes, "Well then what good is Glamour?"

Well, for one thing, Glamour is cheap.

At a total cost of -2 Refresh Glamour is a bargain.

As it can be used for veils, it seems to indicate that it can be used for Evocation style veils. As such though it would follow the same rules, and would still generate mental stress. The main difference here is that you use a skill, and not "power" to determine the strength of the veil.

Not only that, but it allows the creation of a "seeming" which allows you to change an appearance (a power not mimicked in Evocations or Thaumaturgy) as a non-stress causing action. This allows you to simply make a defense or block roll against attempts to recognize the seeming.

The biggest benefit of the Glamour is that you don't have to concentrate to maintain it.

The main reason we don't see Fae usually winded from this is because we rarely see the Fae throw down in the novels. They usually have agents that do things for them (such as Harry's Faerie Godmother's dogs) or we are seeing ridiculously powerful entities like the Summer/Winter Ladies, the Queens, and other True Fae.

[bitterpill]

Glamours don't cost mental stress if you look in the raw any power that requires mental stress says that it requires mental stress, if glamours worked on the system of mental stress there would be an option to incease the strength of the glamour by using more stress.

[EdgeOfDreams]

I disagree. I believe Glamours does not cause mental stress.

For one thing, if Glamours worked like Evocation, then you have to have Conviction to determine the stress, and roll Discipline to control it. The Glamours entry mentions neither.  With Evocation veils, the power you call up determines the stress level and block strength, but with Glamours, Deceit or Discipline determine block strength. This is clearly a different mechanic.  If you ran it like Evocation, then how many shifts of power would you require the player to call up? One? Zero? But there's no benefit to calling up more.

Since Glamours is limited to stealth and trickery, I do not see it as needing the balance of limited uses per scene as Evocation does.  Adding mental stress to Glamours is needlessly complicating a story-oriented power by adding combat trappings and implications.

[wyvern]

The section for glamours does give some rules, though: it says you can put up illusions (veils or seemings) based on either your discipline or deceit skill.  That doesn't sound like evocation to me.

However, my main argument for why glamours is a different beasty stems from the following observation: If we go by your ruling that glamours is just evocation, then there is no reason for the power to exist.  Channeling (illusion) would solidly cover everything that glamours could do, for the same price, and comes with focus item slots to boot.  Seelie magic (or unseelie magic) covers everything greater glamours can do (and then some!) and even comes with enough focus item slots to replicate greater glamours' plus two bonus.  Oh, and both of those options allow you to spend more mental stress (or even consequences) to boost the power of the effect, something glamours can't do.  Given that, why would any character _ever_ want glamours under your ruling?

There are, yes, a number of holes in the specifications for the glamours power - how long they last, how many you can have active at once, etc.  But, in my not-so-humble opinion, making them cost mental stress is a mistake.  On the other hand, allowing direct attacks via true seemings is probably also a mistake, and I wouldn't allow a character to so much as materialize an anvil over someone's head.

(For the record, my default ruling on glamours duration is: seemings (including unattended true seemings) last until dawn.  Veils last a scene.  You've got a total volume limit roughly equivalent to the maximum amount of stuff you can veil; if you've got a glamour running on five of your friends, or a true seeming the size of a truck, you'll have to drop that in order to veil a group of people.  Personal illusions and veils do not count towards this volume limit.)

[HWalsh]

Glamours don't cost mental stress if you look in the raw any power that requires mental stress says that it requires mental stress, if glamours worked on the system of mental stress there would be an option to incease the strength of the glamour by using more stress.

Actually you would be a little mistaken.

Nowhere in the RAW does it say, under any supernatural power, that anything takes mental stress.
That isn't covered until the individual system section itself. By this line of reasoning no sponsored magic, or any form of other magic, would grant any mental stress.

I disagree. I believe Glamours does not cause mental stress.

For one thing, if Glamours worked like Evocation, then you have to have Conviction to determine the stress, and roll Discipline to control it. The Glamours entry mentions neither.  With Evocation veils, the power you call up determines the stress level and block strength, but with Glamours, Deceit or Discipline determine block strength. This is clearly a different mechanic.  If you ran it like Evocation, then how many shifts of power would you require the player to call up? One? Zero? But there's no benefit to calling up more.

Since Glamours is limited to stealth and trickery, I do not see it as needing the balance of limited uses per scene as Evocation does.  Adding mental stress to Glamours is needlessly complicating a story-oriented power by adding combat trappings and implications.

If it is going to be used in combat to make someone "poof" in the middle of a fight? Which I promise you it will be then it having combat trappings and implications indeed makes perfect sense.

Though, after reading through replies, as the GM in this case I've made a decision. I think I will remove the mental stress requirement from the power. I will simply have to do some serious consideration on combat uses.

[MijRai]

I will also point out that Greater Glamours is a full Sidhe power alone. It is mostly in the books for reference, like Domination. Unless you have a really good story or you are making a bad guy, you wouldn't be playing with that.

[zenten]

Though, after reading through replies, as the GM in this case I've made a decision. I think I will remove the mental stress requirement from the power. I will simply have to do some serious consideration on combat uses.

How I handle glamour veiling in my game is it provides the "Invisible" aspect, with a free tag.  It doesn't make someone an invalid target.

[EdgeOfDreams]

If it is going to be used in combat to make someone "poof" in the middle of a fight?

True, going invisible during a fight can be a big deal.  Note, however, the section on veils specifically calls out the difficulty of seeing *out* of your own veil.  As GM, I think you'd be well within your rights to either require the veil to be weakened or ask for alertness checks (opposed by half the veil's strength, as stated in the book) to be able to see your opponent well enough to attack from hiding.  I would also probably take a page out of the D&D player's handbook and state that attacking breaks any invisibility or veil you have active.  This should help to keep a lid on what the players can get away with offensively, though it still leaves Glamours as an awesome defensive/stealth/escape tool.

EDIT: And of course, the enemy always gets the alertness check to see through it.

[luminos]

Glamours, like Shapeshifting and Inciting Emotions, does not cost mental stress.  It is not spellcasting.  It is one of the natural powers that some of the Fae have, like inhuman speed and such.

If you want to look at points cost, think of this:  You can get channeling for -2 refresh as well, and on top of that, you get two focus items and the ability to perform any attacks, maneuvers, veils, blocks, and counterspells you can justify with your element.  Glamours is just the ability to veil and produce small items that look real but aren't.  Plus, the entry for glamours mentions that you can use discipline or deceit to determine the effect.  Doesn't sound like spellcasting to me.  Plus, it makes no mention of it following spellcasting.  It's not in the same section as spellcasting.  The only connection between the two is that both can create blocks against perception.  That alone doesn't give evidence that they use the same subsystem.  Otherwise, you could say shapeshifting and incite emotions using thaumaturgy, or maybe breath weapons uses evocation.  

[Ophidimancer]

For both Glamours and Greater Glamours I just have it use a simple Discipline or Deceit roll to set up the illusion.  They also have nothing to do with spellcasting, so they don't cause stress.  Seems simple enough to me.

[LokiTM]

Given that it is only allowed to "pure fae of considerable power" I think this is one of those things that was never really intended to be used by PCs in the normal course of affairs. It is more of a model than a carefully balanced power.