Where does the system break down in terms of power level

[Sanctaphrax]

I kinda like the way that Pure Mortals are more suitable for lower power levels. It expresses the "puny human" sentiment well without actually making humans useless the way Exalted does.

[Drachasor]

Normal Humans should get shafted in combat, they make up for it by being numerous.Recovery Powers seem them most potent power in a campaign as a well speced fighter should be able to up to severe concequences and be ok in five minutes time, so a fighter can keep going and going well after the wizard has ran out of tricks (in campaigns where mythic levels are an option mythic recovery is the best power by far).

My only point is that a player with a Pure Mortal doesn't make up for it with numbers.  He's by himself.  Seems like everyone needs to get magic, strength, or true faith to keep up...and I am not sure about strength (gets you a lot of stress, but doesn't help you hit...others do stress and hit).  Or perhaps it is better to say the people with True Faith and Magic get crazy to-hit abilities if they want them.

Healing is great, but if you can't hurt anything then healing doesn't do you much good.

[bitterpill]

Pure Mortals are limited by their to hit ability which is maxed at six at Submerged (5+1 for an appropriate stunt), where a supernatural fighter can have a max to hit of 7 (true strike + stunt + 5) not a big difference seven is also about par for True Believers, the only group that has a massive advantage is the caster who can get massive to hit bonus tied to equally massive weapons ratings a submerged caster can get a minimum of 9 to hit and 9 weapon rating  (or 7 for area of effect) and this for only 1 mental stress.   

[Warpmind]

I'd like to point out that Pure Mortals can still kick an impressive amount of butt without magic - and Pure Mortals are liable to have a few extra Fate Points lying around to use on costly Stunts and Aspect tags.
And remember - being a Pure Mortal does not prevent significant amounts of *knowledge* in regards to the supernatural. A character who is, say, a folklorist could easily identify the exact nature of the supernatural threat, figure out the weaknesses thereof, and exploit the heck out of them.

(No, seriously, a Folklorist In The Know with a .50 cal rifle and custom bullets of assorted metals would be death on wheels...)

[Drachasor]

Pure Mortals are limited by their to hit ability which is maxed at six at Submerged (5+1 for an appropriate stunt), where a supernatural fighter can have a max to hit of 7 (true strike + stunt + 5) not a big difference seven is also about par for True Believers, the only group that has a massive advantage is the caster who can get massive to hit bonus tied to equally massive weapons ratings a submerged caster can get a minimum of 9 to hit and 9 weapon rating  (or 7 for area of effect) and this for only 1 mental stress.   

Ahh, I had misread Righteousness (though this can be combined with True Strike potentially for a +2 bonus, which is quite significant).  So Casters are the only ones with really big to-hits then.  They can also make magical items that apply maneuvers on themselves which can then be tagged.

[zenten]

I'm running a game right now at Submerged plus a few extra skills from advancement.  The pure mortal gum bunny PC is rather scary with his 10 modified refresh, even compared to the PC with channeling.

[Drachasor]

I'm running a game right now at Submerged plus a few extra skills from advancement.  The pure mortal gum bunny PC is rather scary with his 10 modified refresh, even compared to the PC with channeling.

Well, if your best "wizard" is just someone with channeling, then that makes some amount of sense.  Also, the thing about wizards and such is that they will pull further and further ahead as things go on.  If everyone has say a skill cap of 6, a wizard could be fairly easily doing attacks with a base damage and hit of 12.

[KOFFEYKID]

Channeling isn't that much worse than Evocation. Most people are going to stick to one element anyway due to specialization and focus bonuses. I mean lets face it, you only stray out of your favorite element when you have to, generally.

[Drachasor]

Channeling isn't that much worse than Evocation. Most people are going to stick to one element anyway due to specialization and focus bonuses. I mean lets face it, you only stray out of your favorite element when you have to, generally.

There are some things that other elements make POSSIBLE that just can't be done otherwise.  Using fire to push someone into another zone via a maneuver would be very, very hard.  Water would arguably be hard too, if you don't let people make water out of thin air (in the books the only use of water evocations we've seen is entropy).  Using Air, Spirit, or Earth?  Much easier.  Shields in some elements also have some obvious weaknesses that can potentially be exploited...and some elements it would be a bit difficult to make a shield that can't be easily exploited, imho.  Even attacks can be different.  You could argue fire makes it easier to destroy a wooden (burn) or even metal (melt) structure whereas it would be hard for Spirit to make a similar claim.  Granted, maneuvers are where the differences shine the most.

I think people really underestimate the utility of different elements.  Admittedly most of this differences is in what people perceive as "fluff", but maneuvers make fluff into mechanics and that shouldn't be overlooked.

[sinker]

I don't know what kind of pure mortals you guys play, but I've done 20+ stress in a single hit with my pure mortal and I didn't even spend a third of my fate to do it. As the power level goes up pure mortals are just going to get more and more fate points which means you can do those 20+ attacks with greater frequency. If done properly a pure mortal is a force to be reckoned with.

[Tedronai]

If done properly a pure mortal is a force to be reckoned with.

Simultaneously the walking jokes and the nuclear weapons of the Supernatural world.  Potentially even more so than, y'know, nuclear weapons.

[toturi]

I don't know what kind of pure mortals you guys play, but I've done 20+ stress in a single hit with my pure mortal and I didn't even spend a third of my fate to do it. As the power level goes up pure mortals are just going to get more and more fate points which means you can do those 20+ attacks with greater frequency. If done properly a pure mortal is a force to be reckoned with.

May I know how your character did so?

[kihon]

/seconded.  Please explain.

[Drachasor]

I assumed it was a ton of invokes...say 8 or 9.  That would do it.  Of course, more refresh isn't going to help you do that a lot more, really.

[Warpmind]

I don't know what kind of pure mortals you guys play, but I've done 20+ stress in a single hit with my pure mortal and I didn't even spend a third of my fate to do it. As the power level goes up pure mortals are just going to get more and more fate points which means you can do those 20+ attacks with greater frequency. If done properly a pure mortal is a force to be reckoned with.

Let's see, starting with a Guns skill of +5, throwing in couple of stunts for +1 to hit and +2 to damage on hit, give it a Weapon rating of 3 for a rifle, +2 for free tag of "In My Sights", lucky roll of +4 brings us to an Attack at 12, with effective Weapon:5... before any Fate Points are spent. If you have another Guns stunt that add 3 to damage for a Fate Point, we're up to Attack 12 and Weapon:8 for a single fate point, minus whatever the unfortunate target managed to defend with... Am I close?

Yeah, 20+ stress attacks from a mortal are quite plausible, far as I can tell. Or in the words of the Team Fortress 2 Sniper - "Boom. Headshot."