Author Topic: Spirit Spell  (Read 13002 times)

Offline Aminar

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2011, 06:13:48 AM »
With a DM handling things right that should never happen.  Technically yes the DM should choose what they resist with, but if creating a fear based effect the obvious answers are discipline or conviction.  You always choose what they resist with in a sense.  They resist with something that dodges/blocks the effect.  Dodging fire requires athletics or a shield.  Dodging fear requires willpower or discipline.

Admittedly Blocks always hit, and against weak willed individuals a mental block is a real pain, same as throwing  a physical block against a weak person would be.  That's good use against those opponents, exploiting their weakness so that just throwing a horde of mooks doesn't stop the enemy.  Now throw that same thing at a fetch.  The fear based creature is just going to laugh, it doesn't know fear(likely a tag).  Throw that same spell at John Marcone and he'll make his roll.  Once they break the block it is gone and they continue on with what they do. 



Offline Drachasor

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2011, 06:21:30 AM »
With a DM handling things right that should never happen.  Technically yes the DM should choose what they resist with, but if creating a fear based effect the obvious answers are discipline or conviction.  You always choose what they resist with in a sense.  They resist with something that dodges/blocks the effect.  Dodging fire requires athletics or a shield.  Dodging fear requires willpower or discipline.

So you are saying someone making an attack would roll discipline instead of guns?  How does that even make sense?  Again, blocks aren't resisted, they are OVERCOME.  Blocks work like a defensive roll and don't make sense as an attack.

Again, it is broken as hell if you make some house rule to allow this in some manner.  The wizard can completely disable anyone in the entire game doing this as long as they know a weak skill or two that person possesses.  It is pretty easy to have an arsenal of block ideas.

Offline Aminar

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2011, 06:41:13 AM »
Make them roll both, Discipline to act and Guns to attack.  Gain the right to attack against this fear effect.  It's well within the scope of what the game wants (to tell an interesting story).  The spell is a block that is resisted, a mental block instead of a physical one.  It's like an evocation illusion. 
Veils are described as blocks on sight within RAW.  Would you roll guns to see through a veil?  Nope, you would roll alertness to spot them and then roll your attack.  Same idea.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2011, 06:47:07 AM »
Make them roll both, Discipline to act and Guns to attack.  Gain the right to attack against this fear effect.  It's well within the scope of what the game wants (to tell an interesting story).  The spell is a block that is resisted, a mental block instead of a physical one.  It's like an evocation illusion. 
Veils are described as blocks on sight within RAW.  Would you roll guns to see through a veil?  Nope, you would roll alertness to spot them and then roll your attack.  Same idea.
Remember, you block action types (blocks & armor) or perception (veils).  You're generally not blocking methods or specific skills unless your block trappings limit its effects.
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Offline Aminar

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2011, 06:58:42 AM »
But it can easily function the same way as blocking perception.  It fits flavor wise, functions nigh on identically to a RAW example but with a different skill, and isn't really broken given these facts.  Especially given that the character is doing this out of flavor motivations.  In that sense it is really awesome.  I'd love it if my players were that creative...  granted I require justifications and personality reasons for any spell.  My non-offensive wizard uses mental blocks against moving on supernaturally strong foes frequently.  He has yet to break anything doing so. (granted my average roll of -2 breaks the campaign a bit, but that is just my DM dice.) 
I guess this is one more flavor over function argument although I would argue it is RAW, just not specifically mentioned.  And filled with Flavor, which strikes me as the name of the game here.  And I would say that once the type of block is resisted it can't just be put back up again the same way.  They have overcome their fear of ghosts for the scene kind of thing...  But that is once again a flavor call.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2011, 07:08:17 AM »
But it can easily function the same way as blocking perception.  It fits flavor wise, functions nigh on identically to a RAW example but with a different skill, and isn't really broken given these facts.  Especially given that the character is doing this out of flavor motivations.  In that sense it is really awesome.
I agree.  That's where the trappings limitation comes in.  Just not sure you've considered the ramifications...

I can make a damage block which only shooting can break because my trappings are an air block which only stops extremely high speed objects.  The ramifications are simple - it's not going to block damage at all from someone's fist, sword, or thrown knife.  They completely bypass the block since they don't meet the 'extremely high speed' criteria.  To look at it another way, you've given the block a catch in order to limit what can break it...
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Offline Aminar

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2011, 07:15:59 AM »
Nah, I understand the ramifications pretty well, anything with low Discipline/conviction is screwed, like anything with low alertness is screwed by a good veil.  And frankly the party is likely not always comfortable with this.  Plus it looks suspiciously like necromancy...  Mightn't the white council care.  Same as my wizards mental blocks functionally breaking the 4th(?) law on regular people and not doing jack against things that don't take to being controlled(non-minion types) limit them.  Basically if I need something to resist a problem a player causes I find a way to limit it while not screwing the character over. 

Offline HumAnnoyd

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2011, 07:56:04 AM »
Quote
Plus it looks suspiciously like necromancy...  Mightn't the white council care.  Same as my wizards mental blocks functionally breaking the 4th(?) law on regular people and not doing jack against things that don't take to being controlled(non-minion types) limit them.

Well I don't see it as Necromancy at all given that it isn't just ghosts attacking but spirits. And it doesn't break the Fifth Law thanks to the nature of ghosts themselves; ghosts aren’t actual dead people—they’re the supernatural “echoes” of the dead.

My character has the Ghost Talker ability from the book but that doesn't limit him to dealing with just ghosts.  It includes all kinds of spirits.  I see this spell as him getting those spirit's attention and getting them to manifest against an area causing havoc and confusion but no real damage.

It's not the Heat, It's the Humanity.

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Offline Aminar

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2011, 08:18:04 AM »
I used looks like for a reason...  Wardens can be jumpy about these.  It most definitely doesn't break the 5th law, but it might raise suspicion for a while.

Offline HumAnnoyd

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2011, 05:04:36 PM »
I used looks like for a reason...  Wardens can be jumpy about these.  It most definitely doesn't break the 5th law, but it might raise suspicion for a while.

Yeah good point.  One of the storylines for my Warden is that he was a rather bad boy in his youth running with criminals and con artists and the like.  After nearly destroying his entire family when trying to rob his dad's vault (his dad is now in a coma and his sister was nearly sacrificed by a Denarrian) he had an epiphany and is now trying to walk the straight path and become a Warden himself.  His Trouble is that he is the Usual Suspect.  So your point about it raising suspicion plays to that nicely. 
It's not the Heat, It's the Humanity.

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Offline Drachasor

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2011, 07:40:51 AM »
Make them roll both, Discipline to act and Guns to attack.  Gain the right to attack against this fear effect.  It's well within the scope of what the game wants (to tell an interesting story).  The spell is a block that is resisted, a mental block instead of a physical one.  It's like an evocation illusion. 
Veils are described as blocks on sight within RAW.  Would you roll guns to see through a veil?  Nope, you would roll alertness to spot them and then roll your attack.  Same idea.

Look up the rules on hiding (stealth and altertness skills).  A veil against sight is just letting you hide for all intents and purposes.  If you get your attack off, everyone knows where you are because at that point you don't NEED alertness to spot people participating in combat.  Now, you might say your block against enemy attacks is being hard to see, in which case it works like any other kind of blocks.  People roll their attack against it to hit you.  Your interpretation of how veils work in combat has no backing in the rules (and would likewise ALSO be horribly broken if implemented).  Heck, this is even backed up in the books with Shagnasty who had great veils.  And Molly who also has really good veils can't stay hidden in combat unless she isn't participating in the combat (e.g. not attacking).

This isn't about "telling an interesting story" that can be done with blocking working as written.  This is about game balance, which this idea would wreck.  Wizards are already extremely powerful in the game; there's no need to make them ridiculously powerful and able to shut down anyone with an evocation that breaks the rules and makes the target have to success with an arbitrary skill decided by the evoker before they can do anything.

Offline bitterpill

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2011, 07:43:21 AM »
Can veils be used instead of stealth for an ambushing roll?
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Offline HumAnnoyd

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2011, 08:16:57 AM »
Look up the rules on hiding (stealth and altertness skills).  A veil against sight is just letting you hide for all intents and purposes.  If you get your attack off, everyone knows where you are because at that point you don't NEED alertness to spot people participating in combat.  Now, you might say your block against enemy attacks is being hard to see, in which case it works like any other kind of blocks.  People roll their attack against it to hit you.  Your interpretation of how veils work in combat has no backing in the rules (and would likewise ALSO be horribly broken if implemented).  Heck, this is even backed up in the books with Shagnasty who had great veils.  And Molly who also has really good veils can't stay hidden in combat unless she isn't participating in the combat (e.g. not attacking).

This isn't about "telling an interesting story" that can be done with blocking working as written.  This is about game balance, which this idea would wreck.  Wizards are already extremely powerful in the game; there's no need to make them ridiculously powerful and able to shut down anyone with an evocation that breaks the rules and makes the target have to success with an arbitrary skill decided by the evoker before they can do anything.

I already conceded your point and endured you essentially saying I was gaming the system like some kind of power gamer.  I realized you were right about how to use zone blocks and I said so.  So please quit telling me that my spell idea would wreck a game.  I proposed it as a interesting point of flavor for a character who deals in spirits.  Maybe I am just being a bit cranky and misreading your posts but I would really appreciate it if you would stop acting as if you are the only one who is right in these discussions and telling me how I can't do things without ruining the game and maybe instead give me an idea or two on how I can go about making this work.

And another thing; you seem to be morally opposed to idea of using an "arbitrary skill" as you call it to resist a spell.  Yet Earth Stomp on page 293 specifies it is resisted by Might.  On the same page Entanglement states it is opposed by a target's Athletics.  In fact most of the spells listed on page 293 on have an "Opposed By:" listing in their write up.  Admittedly most of them are resisted by Athletics but this suggests that a caster may indeed specify what skill is used to resist a spell based on its context.  If this was not true then why would they have that listing in the spell write ups? 
It's not the Heat, It's the Humanity.

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Offline Drachasor

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2011, 08:38:49 AM »
I already conceded your point and endured you essentially saying I was gaming the system like some kind of power gamer.  I realized you were right about how to use zone blocks and I said so.  So please quit telling me that my spell idea would wreck a game.  I proposed it as a interesting point of flavor for a character who deals in spirits.  Maybe I am just being a bit cranky and misreading your posts but I would really appreciate it if you would stop acting as if you are the only one who is right in these discussions and telling me how I can't do things without ruining the game and maybe instead give me an idea or two on how I can go about making this work.

I am saying it heavily favors power gamers -- which either leads to power gamers being too powerful or the rules being kind of up to GM whim depending on how often you use them.  I never said you were a power gamer (not that there's anything wrong with that, don't confuse "power gamer" and munchkin, and I didn't accuse you of the latter either).  I am also saying you were misunderstanding the veil rules.

And I've already said how to make it work.  Just use the standard block rules.  There ya go.  People highly trained in weapons, for instance, can have their training overcome the fear (though it would still reduce their effectiveness).  It does make sense when you think about it.

And another thing; you seem to be morally opposed to idea of using an "arbitrary skill" as you call it to resist a spell.  Yet Earth Stomp on page 293 specifies it is resisted by Might.  On the same page Entanglement states it is opposed by a target's Athletics.  In fact most of the spells listed on page 293 on have an "Opposed By:" listing in their write up.  Admittedly most of them are resisted by Athletics but this suggests that a caster may indeed specify what skill is used to resist a spell based on its context.  If this was not true then why would they have that listing in the spell write ups?  

Yeah, I don't think Earth Stomp would be very balanced as written, unless you could also dodge it.  Frankly, I don't understand how it wouldn't be dodgeable.  The problem with a spell like that is that if you let such a thing in, then a player is can just make bunch of things with odd things to resist.  Might for guys without strength powers, Discipline for people without strong minds, etc, etc.  At that point they are hit their enemies no matter what.  It also means that any big bad the GM creates is going to have to be ridiculously designed to avoid this stuff (and probably they'll all have to be wizards or practitioners of some sort for blocking spells).  It also isn't good for the players if the GM uses a lot of stuff like this since pure mortals and non-casters get unfairly hampered.

Frankly, spells and other attacks should pretty much always be opposable by standard methods (athletics) and if the player can justify something thematically appropriate then that too.  That's how the rules are written, Earth Stomp seems to be the odd duck out in this regard (and again, not being able to dodge it doesn't make a lot of sense).  To be fair, there are other things in the spell and magic item section that are a bit questionable in their balance, especially if you generalize their non-standard mechanics.

To be pedantic, the rules on evocation attacks:
Quote
The Discipline roll to control an attack spell also counts as the attack roll; to avoid the spell, the target can roll a defense roll as per the usual options from Playing the Game (page 200).

Now, page 200 doesn't go into a lot of detail, but it does say Athletics is the catch-all defense.

I mean, if this was Eldritch Ass-kicking, I don't think it would matter, but since there are people that aren't wizards then this sort of thing matters a lot.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 08:40:33 AM by Drachasor »

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2011, 08:47:45 AM »
Can veils be used instead of stealth for an ambushing roll?

You hide badly because you have no hide skill.  You have a veil up.  They try to detect you and fail because of the veil.  Ambush away!

Note that there are no rules for staying hidden after you attack.  Well, you could potentially attack one round, hide the next, attack one round, hide the next.  If they never pierce the veil, that would work.  They'd have a chance to hit you so it doesn't help you that much.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 08:53:43 AM by Drachasor »