Lord Raith: Lawbreaker?

[bobjob]

If you are a mortal with magical power then you are under the jurisdiction of the White Council.

Says who? The White Council? What about wizarding traditions that existed before the White Council? Maybe there were others that just plain old didn't want to be part of their organization. Maybe it's my fault for thinking of the White Council like the Jedi Order.

Let's Lea said "F U Mab! I'm working for Marcone now and there's not a thing you can do about it!" - do you think that:
A) Mab would say "curses, foiled by my own accords", or
B) Point out where it says page X, clause Y, that once you're part of a signatory (i.e. the Winter Court) that you can't just declare you're part of another one?

I could even see Mab insisting that Marcone pay Wergild for his role in things - since he is trespassing on her turf by luring away one of her hirelings...

The way you base that argument, any mortal caster born after the White Council signed their charter for the Unseelie Accords would be under the protection of the White Council, regardless of their personal traditions or if they believe in the White Council's values or authority to govern them. Man, I really hate Big Magical Government

But say that Marcone gets a wizard and keeps him under wraps (i.e. the White Court doesn't know about him) - then the Wardens wouldn't be knocking on his door but the Wizard would still have to take the Law Breaker Stunts.

Absolutely. I see the Law Breaker stunts as corruption of the mortal soul.

[devonapple]

Part of the White Council's obligation to the Unseelie Accords is to police their own, because the other Signatories view mortal spellcasters as a White Council problem. If a mortal spellcaster proves a nuisance to other Signatories, there are Consequences for the White Council. That said, there must be some provision for switching to another Signatory.

[Bruce Coulson]

 I can't imagine Mab (described as the ultimate rules-lawyer) not considering the possibility of switching affiliations.

Since technically, all a mortal spellcaster has to do is take a coin to become a member of the Blackened Denarius, and thus a member of another signatory.

The question is, how easy is it?  Perhaps it requires the permission of both parties to allow for a legal (under the Accords) switch.  References are made to making wizards Red Court vampires during the War (or at least the possibility), but it's not clear that this happened very often previously.

I could see all the Signatories making it very difficult to get out from under one jurisdiction into another, for a lot of reasons.  So, probably for Marcone to legally have his own pet spell caster would require the White Council to sign off on the transfer...and I'm sure there would be a LOT of conditions attached, even if they allowed it.

[bobjob]

I can't imagine Mab (described as the ultimate rules-lawyer) not considering the possibility of switching affiliations.

Since technically, all a mortal spellcaster has to do is take a coin to become a member of the Blackened Denarius, and thus a member of another signatory.

The question is, how easy is it?  Perhaps it requires the permission of both parties to allow for a legal (under the Accords) switch.  References are made to making wizards Red Court vampires during the War (or at least the possibility), but it's not clear that this happened very often previously.

I could see all the Signatories making it very difficult to get out from under one jurisdiction into another, for a lot of reasons.  So, probably for Marcone to legally have his own pet spell caster would require the White Council to sign off on the transfer...and I'm sure there would be a LOT of conditions attached, even if they allowed it.

Having an actual sign off transfer seems kind of cumbersome, even for Mab. Perhaps it's more of a metaphysical thing,

(click to show/hide)

like with Toot Toot switching sides to Winter when Harry became the Winter Knight.

Maybe it's as easy as saying "I'm with Winter now." Obviously there would be issues. For instance, since Elaine Mallory seems to have signed herself up with Summer. Would there have to be some kind of paper work that the White Council would have to sign off on saying "Oops, know that big hubub with your new star Warden killing his first master? Remember that Master having two apprentices? Yeah, about that. She's not really dead, doesn't want to have anything to do with you, and is hiding over here. kthnxbai."

[bobjob]

Only reason I say it that way is, true Mab is a rules lawyer, but I can't see the Red Court and White Council having a sit down pow wow to discuss the wizards the Red Court turned during their war.

[Bruce Coulson]

Warfare undoubtedly changes a lot of the rules, and switching sides (voluntarily or otherwise) is handled under those rules, rather than the peacetime Accords.

I also imagine it depends on how important/powerful the being switching is, to both sides.

[vultur]

Well, the majority of possible switches are pretty obvious (becoming a Faerie Knight, being turned into a vampire). I would tend to think those sorts of things cause an automatic switch without any formalities. Similarly I think fully taking up a Denarian coin automatically makes you a Denarian rather than whatever else -- there don't seem to be any Council issues with frying them by magic, so they clearly aren't considered humans in that sense. Stuff like wizards enthralled by the White Court --are they responsible for their actions under the Laws? -- is a more open question.

I have a feeling a wizard hired by Marcone would be beholden to *both*, though. And the White Council would feel free to act with a pretty heavy hand (maybe through the Blackstaff, but not necessarily) since Marcone is a very minor power.

[rickayelm]

I think that they would be responsible to both Marcone and the White council. Just like Miss Gard has responcibilities to both Marcone and The Monoc corporations leader(two different freeholding lords).

[toturi]

We do not know exactly what is in the Accords. Mab is essentially a statless NPC. We do not know how "ultimate" her rules-lawyering really is.

The difficulty here is whether the GM is going to allow a PC to get the better of Mab or any such NPC of her stature.

[Richard_Chilton]

The way you base that argument, any mortal caster born after the White Council signed their charter for the Unseelie Accords would be under the protection of the White Council, regardless of their personal traditions or if they believe in the White Council's values or authority to govern them. Man, I really hate Big Magical Government

Yes, that is how I think the Accords see it.  If you're mortal with magical powers then you're in the White Council's bailiwick.

Look at White Night.  How many of those dead women were Council members? None, yet the Council claimed the right to protect them - that an attack on them was an attack on the White Council.  They normally don't put a lot of effort into monitoring them (at least not since the war started) but if someone shows power the Wardens show up and tell them the Seven Laws and the "you break them, you die" policy.

If a wizard picks up a coin then he is no longer a mortal with power - he is a mortal/fallen angel combo.  If he becomes a vampire then he's no longer a mortal power, he is a vampire who used to be a wizard.

We can talk about Fae going from Winter to Summer to Wyldfae, but that's different that a Fae going from Fae to White Council, White Court, Marcone, or anything like that.  I'm sure that the Fae signatories kept the nature of the Fae in mind when they drew up the agreement.

What I'm basically saying is at heart you're a Fae, wizard, vampire, or whatever and you normally don't get a choice to change your inner nature.   That, and the Accords divided up the supernatural world with each faction claiming its members as its own.

I could be wrong about this - there's not a lot in the books about the accords - but the "you're with us whether you like it or not" policy seems to fit the source material.

Richard

[Kommisar]

Remember that to the supernatural world and beings of the Nevernever, what one IS is a very simple and obvious thing.  It is part of their very nature.  I like the example of Toot Toot given above.  When Harry went over, so did his "Army" of little Fae.  And he didn't even have to send out a memo or anything.  The natural order shifted and the new reality took hold.

The White Council claims all mortal casters by default.  This was done for two reasons.  One, the other, non-mortal signatories of the Accords probably did even consider it could be otherwise.  It would be like Mab having to go through and assert that any member of her Court were actually members of her Court... individually.  The second reason was that the Wizards are shrewd, paranoid and careful types that understood that, for many reasons, having default claim to all mortal casters was the way to go.  Otherwise, it would be open season on young mortals with the gift and any faction could just go forward with a "Final Solution" to the Wizards all nice and legal like.  This is why the Red Court had to go to war to do just that.

Now, mortals are cheeky things.  They have a free will that is recognized by (if not entirely understood) by supernatural beings like the Fae.  So, a mortal can choose to serve or align with another power.  But that choice leaves an indelible mark upon their soul that is, usually, readily apparent to anyone in the know.  If a new Winter Knight walking around bumped into the Erlking on the street, the Erlking would immediately recognize him for what he is.  The touch of Winter would permeate his very being and soul.  Same if mortal picks up a Coin, sells his soul to a Dark Power or demon, or swears faith to a god like Odin. 

Now, other mortals may not be able to instinctual know.  But, to those beings of the Nevernever, it is as simple as reading a name badge at a convention.

[zenten]

Remember that to the supernatural world and beings of the Nevernever, what one IS is a very simple and obvious thing.  It is part of their very nature.  I like the example of Toot Toot given above.  When Harry went over, so did his "Army" of little Fae.  And he didn't even have to send out a memo or anything.  The natural order shifted and the new reality took hold.

The White Council claims all mortal casters by default.  This was done for two reasons.  One, the other, non-mortal signatories of the Accords probably did even consider it could be otherwise.  It would be like Mab having to go through and assert that any member of her Court were actually members of her Court... individually.  The second reason was that the Wizards are shrewd, paranoid and careful types that understood that, for many reasons, having default claim to all mortal casters was the way to go.  Otherwise, it would be open season on young mortals with the gift and any faction could just go forward with a "Final Solution" to the Wizards all nice and legal like.  This is why the Red Court had to go to war to do just that.

Now, mortals are cheeky things.  They have a free will that is recognized by (if not entirely understood) by supernatural beings like the Fae.  So, a mortal can choose to serve or align with another power.  But that choice leaves an indelible mark upon their soul that is, usually, readily apparent to anyone in the know.  If a new Winter Knight walking around bumped into the Erlking on the street, the Erlking would immediately recognize him for what he is.  The touch of Winter would permeate his very being and soul.  Same if mortal picks up a Coin, sells his soul to a Dark Power or demon, or swears faith to a god like Odin. 

Now, other mortals may not be able to instinctual know.  But, to those beings of the Nevernever, it is as simple as reading a name badge at a convention.

Mechanically would this be the Mark of Power power?

[Kommisar]

I believe it would.  Though, to be honest, I have never been sure as to why this power costs 1 refresh.  To me, it seems a wash.  You get the club's membership card, but you also get the baggage and enemies that come with it.

[sinker]

I think it's simply because of the bonus to all social skills.

[Kommisar]

LOL.  I forgot about that part.

I suppose it also makes sense that giving yourself to a power like this costs you refresh.  After all, one gives up part of themselves in such an arrangement; part of their free will.